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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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Scott68B
Scott Costanzo
Columbus, Ohio
(499 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:30AM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GM 5.3 LS4 V8

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: Scott68B
Date: June 22, 2016 06:55PM

Lorne,

What do you have planned for the supply and return lines? Interested in seeing what you come up with.

Scott

Edit: corrected spelling



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2016 06:56PM by Scott68B.


had to buy it
Lorne Mitchell
Toronto, Ontario
(16 posts)

Registered:
11/04/2013 06:09PM

Main British Car:


Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: had to buy it
Date: June 22, 2016 07:14PM

Scott

After reading and digesting Jim's excellent tutorial on fuel lines, pressures and horsepower(thanks Jim) I am going to try and use the existing supply and return lines with an inline Bosch 44 type pump. My Rover V8 is as yet not rebuilt, just a runner from a 95 Disco. When I get around to rebuilding it I may change the lines but for now I want to see how plug and play I can make the project. So far so good.

Stay tuned

Thanks

Lorne


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 23, 2016 06:15PM

The sender opening in the MGB tank is 1.8" diameter, I just measured it on my car. (aftermarket tank, either from VB or Moss, about '93-'94. No baffles. Bottom flat measurements are 20" wide by 18" long.

That 15 x 8 cross is probably the best bet for this tank. Need to get a late sender with the pickup tube.

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 27, 2016 12:18PM

OK, so I ordered the mat for my car, plus a late sender, a brass float, and 25 ft each of 5/16" and 3/8" nicopp tubing, and pulled the Bosch 44 clone pump out of the battery well and stripped the old lines, canister filter and inertia switch. Pulled the old sender out and the tank is very clean and rust free from what I've seen so far. (E10 is great for drying the tank).

The mat and mounting magnets have come in. I ordered the magnets with the #6 studs, the #4 ones would probably be easier to position though.

I'm going to use 3/8" for the supply line, 5/16" for the return, and probably 1/2" for the suction. I am also mounting the MGB charcoal canister in the trunk (with the 5/8" vent line going through the floor). The tank vent fitting will be used, routed through the stock vapor separator, into the canister, and from there to the engine compartment using 1/4" nicopp (I really like that stuff for ease of use and good appearance at a fair price). There it will need something like a solenoid valve, EGR control valve or some such to vent it to the engine at speeds above idle. The return will be to the original pickup fitting.

The suction line may be a interesting. Originally the plan was to simply cut off the inside pickup tube and attach a hose to the mat. Still a reasonable plan but to reduce the chances of cavitation, a bulkhead fitting there would be a much happier solution with a 3/8" hose internally and a 1/2" hard line outside. Or some variation thereof, maybe even 1/2" hose inside. Ideally the bung would be at the low point. But, I believe the sender is attached to the internal tube, so it isn't just a matter of cutting off the tube, enlarging the hole, and installing a bulkhead fitting. It'll require some thought once more parts show up.

Now in my system that isn't the whole story because the EFI return supplies the working fluid for the intercooler. Most of that system is now plumbed, using 1/2" anodized aluminum fuel line and JIC fittings. Interestingly, the tube and 0-ring fittings used on the condenser can be converted to 45* taper fittings with a small insert. These are not directly compatible with JIC, but can be used under some conditions (not recommended with tubing connections though), so I can enlarge the lines on the suction side of the circulation pump.

Jim


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3235 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 27, 2016 12:54PM

Where did you order the brass float from, Jim?


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 27, 2016 01:49PM

Same place I got the sender...Here it is, EnglishParts.com, Kalamazoo, MI.

1 FLOAT, Fuel Tank Sending Unit, Brass. JLM772B $11.69
1 SENDING UNIT, FUEL TANK WITH FUEL PICKUP, 1977-1980 ADU3218 $22.31

Jim


mstemp
Mike Stemp
Calgary, Canada
(180 posts)

Registered:
11/25/2009 07:18AM

Main British Car:
1980 MGB Rover 4.6L

Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: mstemp
Date: June 27, 2016 02:56PM

Jim,

Have you thought of getting a newer style Charcoal canister. Ones off the late 90's LR are sealed with three fittings, Tank, Air in and Purge line. Gets rid of any fumes coming out of the MG 5/8 line.

Ever considered the new Nylon fuel lines? Easy to run and every car today runs them as they don't deteriorate from modern fuels. No tools needed if you use the connectors made by S.U.R & R. available at:

[www.jbtoolsales.com]

Just redid all my lines and it is so nice not having to worry about kinking a line etc when fitting them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2016 03:13PM by mstemp.



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 27, 2016 03:55PM

Mike, when it comes to tubing lines of any sort I feel a lot more comfortable with metal. I have found JIC fittings to be a very good balance between cost, complexity, and most importantly, reliability. I tried plastic lines for awhile, for air lines. And while the trucking industry relies heavily on them, I never achieved complete freedom from leaks until I went to metal. Lines suitable for hydraulic service are overkill for low pressure systems, sure, but for reliable plumbing it's hard to beat. Nicopp tubing makes running lines easy enough to make it worthwhile. Good luck finding 1/2" of course, and though aluminum is easy to run it also kinks very easily. So that's a limitation. But still, I feel much more comfortable than with plastic. Just me I guess.

I had the charcoal canister at hand and it is a small part, easy to find room in the trunk for it. A sealed unit probably has merit, but if the charcoal is still good and the car doesn't sit for long periods I suppose it'll work. If not, it shouldn't be hard to change to a different canister. There is a question about theory of operation of course. Does it pressurize the tank? Apply a vacuum to it? Without a vent both of those are possibilities.

Jim


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3235 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 27, 2016 04:38PM

I ran aluminum fuel line in my Camaro & the Roadmaster.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 28, 2016 07:25AM

Sender came in, that will be interesting.
Purchased this inline check valve, for $22.50:
[www.ebay.com]
Seems high but I saw the assembly photo and it is a high flow piece and should offer little restriction. Best price I could get. Not needed for a carb btw, and I will have a spare if someone wants one.

Getting the fuel out of the tank is the challenge. More on that as I get this sorted out.

I will also be fitting a Bosch 44 clone pump to the Roadmaster, and I think the Holley FPR can be converted to a return regulator just by adding a fitting for the return line (yes, no?) If yes, then I will just have to add the return line to make that work. (No Holley pickup mat in that one, it has a carb. Also doesn't need the check valve.)

Question: Will the late sender assembly physically fit in the early style tank with the baffles? It looks pretty long.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2016 08:36AM by BlownMGB-V8.


Scott68B
Scott Costanzo
Columbus, Ohio
(499 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:30AM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GM 5.3 LS4 V8

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: Scott68B
Date: June 28, 2016 08:44AM

Quote:

Question: Will the late sender assembly physically fit in the early style tank with the baffles? It looks pretty long.

No, it won't fit without cutting it down quite a bit That was the first thing I tried back in 03 when I went to FI.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 28, 2016 10:01AM

Thanks, I suspected as much. So that method will not get a return for the Roadmaster as it has the baffled tank, and no other fittings. But maybe I could install a fitting on the old style sender.

Jim


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3235 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 28, 2016 10:18AM

Speaking of tank baffles...

[www.streetmusclemag.com]


Justinb
Justin Broome

(20 posts)

Registered:
06/10/2009 12:33PM

Main British Car:


Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: Justinb
Date: June 30, 2016 09:44AM

[documents.holley.com]

The mat you selected calls for a 3.15" tank opening and the mgb tank is only 1.8"

Have you tried fitting it in the tank yet?


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 30, 2016 01:13PM

Yeah, it'll go in. Now if the fitting was in the center it might be a problem but out towards the end it won't be. I don't think fitting the arms will be a problem either, though the mat is kinda stiff and bulky.

Right now I'm waiting on an internal hose, the check valves and some fittings. I'm prepping the stuff for the RM at the same time but no tank mat for that.

The Bosch 44 pump has an 18 x 1.5 mm inlet. I decided to go with 1/2" line and JIC fittings on the suction side. This means a #8 bulkhead fitting in the tank side wall, I've decided on the lower front corner soon as it gets flat, then a 90 and aluminum line from there to the pump. The check valve has a #6 JIC outlet which matches the 3/8" supply line. Return is 5/16" and will use the old tank suction fitting which is the same size. It uses an oddball nut and flare and I haven't sorted that part out yet. Worst case I'll use a #5 JIC union to mate the lines but a tubing sleeve and bubble flare might work. I will retain the existing sender but substitute a brass float.

On the RM I added a common parts store high flow filter with 16 x 1.5 mm fittings. On the outlet side it matches the 1/2" line into the pump but on the inlet side it will mate to the 5/16" suction line from the tank using several fittings to match it all up. The return will be 5/16" line and will mate to the tube in the new late model sender I just bought, using a compression union. (Well that was a pretty fair plan until I just remembered it's a baffled tank. Back to the drawing board. May have to install a #5 bulkhead connector in the sender plate for the short sender instead.)

Now that bulkhead deserves more description. It is a #8 which means a 3/4" hole in the tank. The bulkhead fitting itself has an integral hex flange with a slight shoulder on the long side and an o-ring groove, so the idea is to attach the internal hose (This is presumably before the mat is in. The hose is Parker 1/2" marine grade fuel hose with female JIC-8 ends, costs about $40.) by first fishing a wire in the bulkhead and out the sender hole, then use that to pull the bulkhead through from the inside with the hose attached. Then center it in the hole, install the o-ring, and cinch down the locking nut, sealing the joint. Since it is kinda important both to tighten the nut adequately and to be able to tighten the connecting 90 without turning the bulkhead fitting, I expect to cut a pair of flats in the shank of the bulkhead fitting in between the lock nut and the 90 nut. Then it is a matter of inserting the mat and getting it into position where it will not interfere with the sender float. The short sender helps. I'll probably use a holesaw to cut the hole. Since they always cut oversize I will have to see if I can get an 11/16" and test it on some scrap. Might end up having to finish it with the die grinder, I have a carbide burr that ejects the shavings back towards the grinder and can use the shop vac to add some suction. Anything that gets past that won't get past the mat.

So. The late model sender was a miscue in either case, but would work with a stock size suction line and an unbaffled tank. I never cared for the lack of a grounding lug anyway, and it's nice to keep the sender purely OEM. Except for the float on mine and the #5 fitting on the RM that is.

I had some tubing come in yesterday so I'll be doing tubing runs while I wait, got all the fittings sorted out today finally (which tends towards confusion and the purchase of unnecessary and expensive hydraulic bits) so from here on it should be pretty straightforward.

If we have any more starvation issues with the RM after this it would not be too difficult to duplicate the pickup in my car in order to go to a 1/2" suction line, at a cost of around $275. With that, the 3/8" supply line and the FPR directly behind the carb, that only leaves a short piece of 5/16" line between the carb and FPR and that could be enlarged if needed. But really, I think this ought to do it.

Jim



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: July 03, 2016 09:26PM

One way to add a return:

IMG_0003.JPG

IMG_0005.JPG

A #5 bulkhead fitting was cut down, and a nut made out of a lug nut by turning off the flats to reduce the diameter, cutting down the length, drilling the end, and then pressing a T-50 Torque bit through the hole so it could be used as a driver to tighten the nut. The sender flange was drilled with a 1/2" hole, one flat of the hex on the bulkhead was ground down to clear the insulator and then the works assembled with an o-ring and tightened.

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: July 04, 2016 05:43PM

Nearing completion of the fuel system on my car, waiting on a hose and check valve to finish up. Here are a couple of shots, one of the charcoal canister and one of the fuel, vent, and hydraulic lines going over the rear axle, still have to add the 1/2" suction line. I decided to tuck the canister up behind the rear wheelwell. The tank vent is taken off the filler neck and goes through the stock vapor separator before going through the bulkhead fitting in the floor of the trunk and to the canister. That only left the suction line to the engine. Because of the blower I will have to either include a check valve or some other means of keeping boost out of the vent line.

Jim

IMG_0006.JPG

IMG_0007.JPG


had to buy it
Lorne Mitchell
Toronto, Ontario
(16 posts)

Registered:
11/04/2013 06:09PM

Main British Car:


Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: had to buy it
Date: July 04, 2016 07:13PM

Jim

Did the HydraMat fit easily through the available hole in the fuel tank?


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: July 04, 2016 08:16PM

Haven't done that part yet, still waiting for the hose. Don't see it being a problem though.

Jim


Scott68B
Scott Costanzo
Columbus, Ohio
(499 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:30AM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GM 5.3 LS4 V8

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: Scott68B
Date: July 05, 2016 08:44AM

Jim,

Are you adding a tube to your return fitting and aiming it at the supply line fitting on the mat or are you thinking that isn't necessary?
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