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Casey
Casey Crookston

(24 posts)

Registered:
12/09/2016 09:25PM

Main British Car:


3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: Casey
Date: January 21, 2017 11:05PM

Rover 4.6 crank stock rod journal- 2.185
Carrillo NASCAR forged H-beam rod journal- 1.850 (more on these in a second)
Difference- .335
Practical difference (to avoid tool chatter, etc)- .315

Rover 4.6 stock stroke- 3.2283
After offset grind gain- 3.5433

The NASCAR rods are sold on eBay after a weekend of use. There are a lot of them available for cheap ($65-150 plus shipping for 8). The set I have my eye on are 6 inches in length, have the correct width journal end, a .787 pin, and .700 pin width. Price is $125 obo. Of course you would need custom pistons (which aren't very cheap), and you may want to treat the crank if your worried about cutting the journals down that much. Also, since I doubt anyone has had reason to cut the 4.6 crank down that much, there would be the unknown of how the oil holes would migrate or cause problems. Let me know if I made a mistake or where the other flaws in my thinking are.

If I get this 4.6 crank I'm after and can find someone to do the work cheap enough I may just be the guinea pig.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2017 11:05PM by Casey.


tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(326 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: January 22, 2017 07:49AM

You will need to have the crank balanced again. This requires heavy slugs of mallory welded into the counterweights. Last one I had done was well north of $500.


Casey
Casey Crookston

(24 posts)

Registered:
12/09/2016 09:25PM

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Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: Casey
Date: January 22, 2017 11:22AM

Good point. In my mind rebalancing is going to happen to any build. You do really up the cost with mallory but since the rotating assembly would be getting dramatically lightened would they use much or any at all? I'm no balancing expert. That's neat that your shop actually welds it in, the only balancing place I have actually seen do their work just drilled holes and put plugs in. I haven't checked prices since I moved but $500 seems like an awful lot, is that what everyone else here is paying? I remembered $200ish plus mallory being the norm but again I'm no balancing expert.

I guess I should clarify that when I say "cheap" I mean compared to what it would take to get the same thing otherwise (retail stroker kit). V8Tuner wants $2715 for a 5.0 and Triumph Rover Spares wants $2438 for a 4.9. This is before shipping. All that and then you are stuck with their pistons so you have to fiddle with your chambers to get your desired CR. The Wedge Shop obviously does stroker kits but their prices aren't listed-- I am just going to go ahead and assume they are in the same ballpark.

With this combo you could go as high as 5.1 liters (3.740 pistons), you get a piston made exactly to your specs, and the best part for those who have better halves to answer to, you can spread the cost out over some time instead of plopping down $2500+ all at once. Todd, I realize this isn't a problem for you (given the $10k wrecked Camero and the fact that you would just go with an LS anyway) but to some it makes a huge difference.

$1000 Custom Pistons w/rings and pins
$100 4.6 Crank
$150 Rods
$600 Regrind crank, balance, and nitride
$1850 Total

I know before I could get that work done for the price stated, but I will have to call around to see what the going rate would be for my area. I may have to call The Wedge Shop just to get an idea on what their price would be on a kit. When I checked shipping from AU it was going to be $300 just for a crank so the other two kits described would probably land a lot closer to $3k. A benefit to the kits is that they all appear to have 2 inch rod journals. I don't know strength wise how much .150 makes a difference but the Honda guys seem to do fine with them? Keep the points coming, it would be nice to figure out if this is worth testing.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5329 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 22, 2017 01:56PM

Sounds great, but if I was spending that money I'd still start out with the 300 block, avoid the liner and thread pull issues, and put my money into the TA heads. The 50 lbs you save with the Rover block will be more than made up for with the increased reliability and better breathing. Plus if you are really Jonesing for a stroker slap a 350 crank in it and call it done.

Jim


Casey
Casey Crookston

(24 posts)

Registered:
12/09/2016 09:25PM

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Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: Casey
Date: January 22, 2017 06:19PM

My understanding was that the newer Rover blocks didn't suffer from the thread pull issues like the old Buicks? The liner aspect is always a gamble. I wish there was some data available on total number of engines vs. the number that experienced problems after x number of miles; it would be informative but a gamble nonetheless.

Jim, are talking about putting a 350 crank in a Rover? I have seen a few threads referencing that and even a few people who started, but found it wasn't feasible for one reason or another (I think it had to do with balancing perhaps?). That's not to say it wouldn't be possible given enough time and expense, but it wouldn't exactly be "slap(ping) a 350 crank in it and call(ing) it done".

If you are talking about the 350 crank in the 300 block, then ignore the above comment.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4308 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: "threads pulling out"
Posted by: Moderator
Date: January 22, 2017 07:00PM

Quote:
Jim, are talking about putting a 350 crank in a Rover?

No, Jim just likes to derail every Rover thread he can;


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3229 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 22, 2017 07:47PM

:)

He is talking about putting a Buick 350 crank in a Buick 300 block.

I love the Buick/Olds/Rover V8, but for the amount of dollars you are talking, you would miles ahead following Jim's suggestions.

I have not seen anything that would point to a late Rover aluminum block being less susceptible to stripped threads.



tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(326 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

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Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: January 22, 2017 11:55PM

10K was a high buy in price, but I'm a big picture guy. In the end I want the best bang for my buck. I'm a cheapskate. A big cheapskate. Spending 10 up front and selling off 5 to end up with what I have was the best money I ever spent. The fact that I got 426 unbreakable reliable HP right out of the box is only the beginning. I got a complete driveline in one fell swoop. Leather Recaros, independent rear end with limited slip, way cool gauges, huge Brembo brakes, rad and fans, killer stereo, a stainless dual exhaust, and much more were there for the repurposing or selling off. Pay a machine shop to build a stroker engine and the long block alone can cost you close to $10K. Many of my friends have gone that route. Many have seen their engines go up in smoke and then did it again. If you could get a stroker long block done for under $5K, I would be very surprised. At that point you still need to buy everything else to install it. Its fun to bench race. Thats why we are all here. In the real world, prices add up quick. I suggest you make a list of everything you need to buy other than the basic internal engine parts, and start attaching dollar figures to them. Don't forget about the heads. Thats where all the power is lost or gained, and thats where the money should be spent. A 4.0 with good heads will make more power than any stroker Rover with stock heads. 3K is about what you should expect to spend once the engine is done just to get it installed and running. I don't want to rain on your parade, but I've been messing with these things for over 30 years, and as previously stated, I'm a cheapskate. If you really want the cubes and 300 plus HP, Jim is spot on with his comments on starting with a 300 block. A buddy of mine with a busted stroker engine is weighing his options now. Its more likely than not that he is going to snag the 300 block I have in my basement and start over with that rather than build up another Rover block. He's weighing the $2k it will take just to do top hats in another Rover block plus the cost of having it rebuilt, VS the cost of just rebuilding the 300 and swapping in a T5 tranny.


Casey
Casey Crookston

(24 posts)

Registered:
12/09/2016 09:25PM

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Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: Casey
Date: January 23, 2017 10:50AM

No worries, no parade raining detected. I understand given the mention of cost in the title of this thread how one could assume I was after the lowest $ per horsepower. If that was the case I'm sure someone could build a 426hp big block that would be less stressed than any 426hp LS, and for less money. But, at the end of the day its all about what the individual is after. Some people want to go the tried and true route and don't mind spending a lot of money. Others want tried and true for the least cost possible. Still others want to try something new. Its obvious Jim favors the increased durability of the 300 block over the increase in weight and size of the Rover. It looks like you are trying to go the most cost effective route for your desired goal.

Think of how much easier it would be for everyone on this forum if they just bought a BMW Z series? Probably more power than anyone (legally) needs, good handling, even air conditioning! Better still, the only effort it takes is to sign the paper and make your payments! Or pay cash I suppose, there seems to be a lot floating around in the $5-10k range. But, like I said, everyone is after something different. This thread is for people who want a 3.54 stroke Rover for the most cost effective way possible.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3229 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 23, 2017 11:38AM

Hope it goes well & keep us updated.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5329 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 23, 2017 01:18PM

Wasn't my intent to derail the thread, just to point out that other options may be desirable.

It also is never my intent to badmouth the BOPR. There are a variety of situations where it would be the most desired engine. It has shortcomings, yes. But so do all other engines. If that were not true we would all be using one engine for everything and there would be no other.

I do not know what situation calls for a 3.54 stroke Rover. Obviously there must be at least one. Once one of us has defined the requirements and selected the best engine to meet those needs then the next thing to be addressed is overcoming that particular engine's shortcomings.

At any rate, unless I misunderstood, the goal was maximizing output in about a 5 liter package without sacrificing reliability, using the BOPR format, and the 300 does that. Yes it is 50 lbs heavier than the later Rovers. Yes it has 9/16" taller decks. That could take it out of contention but it does fit in an MGB. But you are correct, that information was not asked for. My apologies for butting in. I suppose since the rod and piston selections have already been made alternatives may not be welcome there either, and methods of dealing with the inherent weaknesses of the block are discussed elsewhere so a search is all that is required if desired.

I haven't done a 3.54 stroker, so I suppose I haven't anything further to add. Best of luck with it though. I hope it's everything you expect it to be. After all, it's only money.

Jim


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(2863 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 23, 2017 07:19PM

Well clan, how much stroke/ torque does a 2,200 lb., LBC need ? Most would agree, 2.8" is a little on the short side, but so much cost and trouble to arrive at 3.54" ? Let's remind ourselves that these are cast iron crankshafts and I'm not convinced that a 1.850" journal will prove trouble-free, at higher rpm./ outputs. Good Luck, art.


Casey
Casey Crookston

(24 posts)

Registered:
12/09/2016 09:25PM

Main British Car:


Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: Casey
Date: January 23, 2017 10:29PM

Haha Art I share the same concern with the size of the journal. It looks like the retail kits contain SG (nodular) iron cranks, again with the 2 inch journals. I don't know if the Rover crank is SG or just plain cast iron but either way it may end up with insufficient overlap between the main and the throw. I have a few calls out to shops in the area to get a consensus.

On another note, after mulling it over for the day I am finding it difficult to tell (as is often the case over forum based communication) whether I am offending people by my comments. I really don't intend to offend anyone, but I also don't have the energy to take the lengths it seems I would need to completely avoid it. I'm not worried about being missed (heck I just barely got here!) but in the future I think I will refer to a forum that I don't have the same concerns about.

You are a great group and thanks for the input! Sorry I don't fit in so well.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1783 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: January 24, 2017 02:02AM

Casey, I see no offense. You fit in fine here.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5329 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 24, 2017 02:20AM

You're fine Casey. Stick around awhile.

Jim



tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(326 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: January 24, 2017 07:46AM

Your not offending anybody here. We spend half the time encouraging each other and the other half of the time telling each other the flaws in their argument. Build you up and then tear you down just like the media does. Keep the ideas coming and we'll keep telling you the good and the bad. We as a collective have a better sense of the big picture. My personal belief has been formed over many years and many engines and is that a basic 4.6 is good enough. No need to spend exponential dollars to go beyond that for ever diminishing returns. Take your 260 to 280 hp at the rear wheels and be happy. You want exponential more performance that what you can get from a 4.6, then you should be looking at alternative engines. All final decisions can be swayed by what you have on hand and what you can and can not attain easily. The fact that I have literally a couple dozen aluminum V8s, a dozen 5 speed Rover trannies, half a dozen bell housings, etc. is the only reason I'm still in this game.


minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(120 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: minorv8
Date: January 24, 2017 08:26AM

Hi, I have an interesting crank that is supposedly a Iceberg casting that is machined for TVR 500 rod size. It has 2" rod journals like 215/ smaller Rover engines. The problem is that rod journal width is a way narrower than normal Rover, around 3/4 or so. Why TVR chose a narrow rod in their Rover based engines is a mystery. It needs 6" rods and special pistons. Having sourced the crank, rods and pistons separately I have about 2000 USD in them. So sometimes you might find stroker stuff "relatively" cheap.

As for UK kits, many advertise but in reality they may not have all the parts in stock. And if not they hardly will get not stock in.

I also have all the parts for TVR short block but I have not built either engine because the current 4,6 is providing enough power (300+) and refuses to break down.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3229 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 24, 2017 11:26AM

Don't go someplace where all they do is say "Go for it!" & pat you on the back. This forum will steer you right, Casey.


Casey
Casey Crookston

(24 posts)

Registered:
12/09/2016 09:25PM

Main British Car:


Re: 3.54 Stroke Rover Cheap?
Posted by: Casey
Date: March 23, 2017 11:52PM

I just now took the time to read what was posted on this thread since I made my last post. I guess if I'm not offending anyone then there's no reason not to pop in here and there-- there really is a wealth of information here, and like I said before you seem like a great group of guys.

I'll give a couple of updates in case anyone is bored... So I ended up trading my passenger side exhaust manifold and a $20 Discovery windshield cowl to a gentleman in NC for the 4.6 crank. Then I started looking around for the 1.265 Icon pistons (IC832) and found them for $630 on Summit and $500 on CNC Motorsports. After scrolling through a couple pages on google though I come across this website called Carid that has them for $96 for a set of 8? I read some reviews on the retailer and they were a pretty even split between "great" and "absolutely terrible". I decided it was worth a $106 gamble after shipping and figured they would either cancel the order or I would get a single piston in the mail and have to return it.

To my amazement, I find a box on my porch a couple of weeks later that contains a set of 8 pistons! I called the company and tried to let them know they had some products seriously mismarked (some of the other Icon sets were similarly priced) but the rep said "nope, all of our prices are correct". He did even want the item number or anything. Then I ordered 3 more sets in another size (the IC835's, which would be perfect for a 300 crank in a Rover block with the 4.0/4.6 heads) and then called to cancel the order the next day. This rep was very quick to say "Yes! No problem we can cancel that order right now!" Now they all read out of stock on their site...

So, I ended up with a set of Icons for $106, can you believe it? After looking it over I think I will get my 4.0 connecting rods bushed for the SBC wrist pin, which should allow me to bring the piston down to deck or thereabouts. I also got the 4.0 torn down and the good folks at the Wedge Shop were kind enough to take the cylinder heads off my hands which paid off the engine and then some. The head gaskets did not display any signs of liner slippage, none of the pistons were steam cleaned, and the coolant looked perfect. That being said, with the money I saved on the pistons its tempting to order some liners. Anyways, that's what I've been up to. Hope everyone else has been having fun!


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