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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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IaTR6
Dennis Costello
Central Iowa
(142 posts)

Registered:
12/29/2007 02:53PM

Main British Car:
'73 TR 6 '97 Explorer 5.0

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: IaTR6
Date: October 11, 2018 12:36PM

Tim, If you are at 3500 rpm, and using .63 overdrive, you should read 2205 rpm in 5th. At 4000 in 4th, a .63 5th would give 2520 rpm.
A 3500 to 2500 change is .71, and 4000 to 3000 is .75. Is it possible you have a .73 now, since that would fall within the error of the tach reading?
When I look at my listing of T5's, the .63 5th ratio seems fairly rare. It would mean taking the tail housing off, but for a 2.95 first gear, the overdrive gears should be 25/51T. I assume the aluminum tag with the 1352-11-___ is missing? Is there a partial VIN on the right side of the case on the mounting flange? (outside
surface, not on the bell housing face)
If so, it may be possible to identify the transmission. Case casting numbers are less reliable, but may help also.
Dennis


tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: tbo
Date: October 17, 2018 09:44AM

Finally saw how to access the Speed /RPM calculator and got some interesting info.In 4th at 3000 rpm /60mph with the .63 5th gear the revs drop to 1849 a difference of 1085 rpm. With the.73 5th gear the rpm drops to 2142 a difference of 792. With a .80 5th gear the rpm drops to 2318 a difference of 606 rpm . Available Horsepower between 2000 and 4000 is(don't laugh) 85 to 90 . So can I switch to the .73 gears and not have to find a WC trans which will accept the .80 gear set or just plat it safe and go there any way. Of course I have to find a WC trans in good shape with the 295 .63 configuration and then the .80 gear kit . All of that is fraught with problems too.I need a gambler from Vegas to tell me the odds.!! Thanks for the graph Carl


tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: tbo
Date: October 20, 2018 08:59AM

Hi Dennis. As you can see I did all of my calculations at 3000 or 60 mph. As to the trans ,the chap I bought it from had it in a 68 Mustang . He is an engineer BTW and was putting a big block in the car and another trans. He said the trans was out of an 83 Capri which means it sould be 1352-065 Of course the tag was missing so I had to take his word I think we checked the 5th gear by manually rotating the input shaft and it checked out but .63 or.73 who knowsI think fo now I'm putting the car away and working on a TR3 that taking up all the room in my heated garage.Maybe i'll get lucky and find the correct WC trans over the winter.If any body has any ideas please send me a PM Thanks Tim


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1047 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: October 20, 2018 09:51AM

Quote:
we checked the 5th gear by manually rotating the input shaft and it checked out but .63 or.73 who knows...
If done carefully, you should be able to distinguish between a 0.63 and a 0.73 fifth gear.
I have a spare Ford T5 in the garage with a 3.35 first and 0.68 O/D - all gear ratios identifiable using the input/output turn test.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2019 08:57AM by ex-tyke.


tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: tbo
Date: October 21, 2018 12:32PM

Hello Graham . Nice to hear from somebody local. When I bought the trans about 3 years ago I knew very little about T5s .63 .73 what does that matter. Do you know of anyone with a spare t5 from an 85 mustang? that would be 1352-126 WC with a 335 first and a .80 5th Just the one I need! I think I'll post an ad on Kijiji and see what happens. If you seek you might find .As far as the trans being .63 or .73 I can find out when I pull it . I know for sure it's too tall Tim


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1047 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: October 21, 2018 01:52PM

If you know the vehicle application(s) for the 1352-126, then you can search wrecking yards on this site.
[www.car-part.com]


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1958 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: mgb260
Date: October 21, 2018 04:26PM

Tim, The Turbo four T5's had a .79 OD. They have a 3.97 first though too.



tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: tbo
Date: October 22, 2018 07:38AM

Hi Jim.I have three 4 cylinder t5s and I'm pretty sure one is a Turbo but the input shaft is longer and my custom Triumph bellhousing is made specifically for the v8 length input shaft. . I really like the 295 first gear I have now but the 335 first would be OK so the 85 Mustang 1352-126 would solve all my problems. Just have to find one or build one . Tim


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1047 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: October 22, 2018 09:32AM

Here's a handy chart for identifying T5 applications and gear ratios - maybe there's another xsmn application/part that might suit
[www.britishv8.org]


tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: tbo
Date: October 22, 2018 06:54PM

Thanks Graham . I really appreciate that but I've been studying that chart ever since I decided to put a 2.3 Ford Turbo into a TR3 I'm restoring thee or four years ago.I/ve had some health issues since then and have decided to finish it as stock and sell it .So I put the a T5 in my TR2to get a nice five speed with no electrical issues. Tired of 3000 rpm at 60 mph . Still any help is always good Tim


tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: tbo
Date: March 21, 2019 08:26PM

Just an update on the5th gear problem on the Ford T5 in the TR2.I took a T5 trans with a335 first gear and .68 overdrive to my local transmission shop whose owner has a reputation for excellent and fairly priced work.He managed to find a set of gears that could be adapted. They were a31/55 nwc set in used condition. They did not line up on the wc output shaft without machining the big gear down a few thousands to make it narrower and moving the clip groove for the small gear so it sat properly in line with the big gear.With a new input shaft and new bearings a better replacement lay shaft I now have a rebuilt T5 transmission with a.82 overdrive for a very fair price of 900.00 dollars. That will be going in in a couple of months and will let you know the outcome when it happens. Looking forward to a happy ending and many thanks to all you guys who helped out with advice and knowledge Tim


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1047 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: March 21, 2019 09:29PM

You could have purchased a new 31T/55T WC gearset to get the same results without the machining expense.
Ultimately, you've got the ratios that you wanted - so congrats and the TR2 will be happier cruising on 401!


tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: tbo
Date: March 24, 2019 09:29AM

Hello Graham. Someone called Waterbucket posted on Sept 30 that Tremec no longer supplies .80 gearsets and any used sets are expensive. My guy found one gear available at 200 dollars but no matching gear As far as I know all aftermarket sets are for the 295 first gears wc trans which are more popular for racing.In the 335 first gear trans that gives a ratio of .92 so that is out.We were just lucky that the box of 5th gear sets that he bought from a retired tranny guy in London had one set that produced a final ratio of .82 even though they were nwc I think that is how all that came to be. When I started this project I thought well Ford has all kinds of gear ratios so this should be a piece of cake. Well I know a lot more now will let you know it all works out . Tim


waterbucket
Philip Waterman
England
(69 posts)

Registered:
07/30/2011 01:08PM

Main British Car:
1978 MGB GT

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: waterbucket
Date: March 25, 2019 01:16PM

The 0.80 fifth gear was principally used with the 2.95 first gear and was introduced on the Ford Cosworth Sierra and was then adopted by TVR with a different tailhousing. There were two problems with the 0.80 fifth gear set, the first is that it was fragile and was often the first thing to fail in these gearboxes, the second was that if the gears outlasted the bearings actually removing these gears often broke them anyway. These gears went out of production a long time ago and now alongside the 23 tooth input shaft are as scarce as hens teeth.
With a lack of OE parts and also to overcome their fragility aftermarket 0.80 gearsets were produced with racing in mind. These gears have bigger teeth but less of them and the are less helical in their manufacture, the upshot of this is that they are noisier. Not having heard them running I do not know how much noisier though.
It was this that decided me to sell my T5 ang go down the RX8 gearbox route, although these have their own problems (synchros linked to running up to 9500rpm) they can be bought for less than 100 ($130) so for the cost of a T5 overhaul I could buy ten of them.
The last downside of the 080 fifth gear is that with a high torque engine you need to change the diff ratio to get its real benefit


waterbucket
Philip Waterman
England
(69 posts)

Registered:
07/30/2011 01:08PM

Main British Car:
1978 MGB GT

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: waterbucket
Date: March 26, 2019 02:42PM

I did post the info regarding after market 5th gear sets for a T5. The original 0.80 5th gear was used on the Ford Cosworth Sierra and afterwards by TVR on their Rover V8 cars. The downside with the OEM 0.80 5th gear is that it is not very strong and was often the first thing in those particular T5's to fail, even if the gears did not fail in use removing them without a special puller often broke them anyway.
The after market ones are designed with racing in mind and have a much higher torque rating but they are of a straighter cut geartooth and the suppliers say they are not as quiet as the OEM. They also need a slight relieving of part of the gearcasing to get them to fit.
If your supplier has any more of the OEM 0.80 5th gearsets they typically make about $650 in the UK.
For info I show the speeds in the gears with a 2.95 gearset and 185/80/15 tyre as fitted to the TR6 and a 3.45 diff that was widely used in the UK

mph / RPM 1000 2000 3000 4000 5000 5500
1st Gear 7.8 15.6 23.4 31.2 39 42.9
2nd Gear 11.7 23.5 35.2 46.9 58.6 64.5
3rd Gear 17.2 34.3 51.5 68.6 85.8 94.3
4th Gear 23 46 69 91.9 114.9 126.4
5th Gear 28.7 57.5 86.2 114.9 143.6 158

And for the 3.35 gearset

mph / RPM 1000 2000 3000 4000 5000 5500
1st Gear 6.9 13.7 20.6 27.4 34.3 37.7
2nd Gear 11.9 23.8 35.7 47.6 59.5 65.5
3rd Gear 17.8 35.6 53.5 71.3 89.1 98
4th Gear 23 46 69 91.9 114.9 126.4
5th Gear 28.7 57.5 86.2 114.9 143.6 158

I would have thought that either gearset would be good for a TR, almost 29MPH/1000 rpm is not bad 2600rpm for 75mph. Indeed the TR6 first gear is 314 right in the middle of the two gearsets



tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: tbo
Date: March 28, 2019 08:33PM

Hi Phil. Thanks for that info. My transmisssion rebuilder had only one set of gears for the .80 over drive ratio and that was by accident and good luck .Could use lots more obviously. The20/32 gear set for the 2.95 first gear is available at The gear Box in south carolinafor 120 us. Nothing for the 335 trans as far as i know.After looking at the 5th gear numbers I keep wondering why the numbers are identical for both the 295 the 335 trans .They should be slightly different to reflect the two different first gears I would think. Am I missing something Tim


IaTR6
Dennis Costello
Central Iowa
(142 posts)

Registered:
12/29/2007 02:53PM

Main British Car:
'73 TR 6 '97 Explorer 5.0

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: IaTR6
Date: March 29, 2019 04:00PM

Tim,
I cannot put my fingers on the information right now, but I thought there was an issue with some 5th gear sets where the Ford and GM mainshaft splines were different, meaning some combinations cannot be used a Ford or vice-versa. You'll have to look into that.I find from Pro-Force Performance web page that your choices for 5th are:
for a 3.35 T5
.68 27/59t (what I have)
.73 25/51t
.83 31/33t
.92 33/53t (listed as no longer avail.)

for a 2.95 T5
.59 27/59t (what I would have if I had changed my input shaft and the 1-3 gears)
.63 25/51t
.72 31/55t
.80 33/53t (listed as NLA, but you find there are some available, but case mods may be required.)
I'm adding this, and it may be redundant, but you cannot just change the input and first gear to get a different
1st gear ratio. The input and 1-2-3 gears all have to be in a matching set. So, making a 3.35 1st gear T5 into a 2.95 1st
is prohibitively expensive unless you have access to the correct press and expertise. It kept me at 3.35 for that
reason only.
Dennis


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1047 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: March 29, 2019 11:11PM

To add my 2 cents worth - here's another web document on 5th gear ratio availability.

T5 5th gear ratios.JPG


tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: tbo
Date: March 30, 2019 08:51PM

Hello Dennis and thanks for responding. It all helps . I think the 335 first gear trans on the .83 overdrive should be a 31/55 gear set cause that is what my guy put in my trans an the ex tyke from Chatham has that same listing in his email below yours.Ive come to the conclusion that the 335 ist gear is ok cause it is the same as the Triumph ist gear and only gets you started.The overdrive is all important for cruising.As to your car I know it has a lot of horsepower so why not just by a 295 /.63 WC transmission and swap out the one you have and sell it. I have a 295 first gear in the TR2 and it is wonderful . You would love it in your car.Thanks Tim


IaTR6
Dennis Costello
Central Iowa
(142 posts)

Registered:
12/29/2007 02:53PM

Main British Car:
'73 TR 6 '97 Explorer 5.0

Re: Changing 5th gear ratios on Ford t5
Posted by: IaTR6
Date: March 31, 2019 01:00PM

Well Tim, not going to the 2.95 1st gear was just a case of "where do you stop throwing money at it". I am not that happy with the 3.35 and V8, and could start in 2nd, but changing all the gears in my case would have been $1000 or so, and I would still have a weaker transmission than I would like. Going to a T5Z or another was just more than I wanted to spend. I cannot see myself actually needing the heavier trans
as hard launches from a start are not in my future - 20mph and punch it is more realistic. I did convince myself by calculating the 6000 rpm limit in 1st for both 3.35 and 2.95 gears, and it wasn't enough difference, or so I thought at the time. Now that I think about it, the actual issue is my exhaust is too loud. If I
keep up with the 6-8-10 speed SUV's, I find I'm making quite a racket, and the other drivers think I'm racing or something. Of course, I could give a good
many of them a run for it, but they would be silent, and I'm making a scene!
Dennis
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