Engine and Transmission Tech

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

Go to Thread: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicLog In


tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(342 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: November 09, 2018 06:30AM

Can somebody walk me thru this like I'm an idiot, because I think in this case I just might be. Grabbed a 4.6L out of a late 2003 Disco 2. Sent it off to be rebuilt to put it into one of my TR8 coupes. I now am under the assumption that I just can't simply bolt on the TR8 pickup and pan like you could on the earlier 4.0/4.6 versions. Something about how the oil gets sucked up at the front of the engine with the later g rotor pumps. I have been completely blindsided by this. Whats the real deal? Is this even a thing? What are my options? Gave away the aluminum pan that came on the engine because it was too big to clear the TR8 subframe.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3515 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: November 09, 2018 05:24PM

My understanding, Todd, is if using the late 4.0/4.6 timing cover & latest oil pump system, one must use the oil pan that came with the engine.

Only way i know around it , is to use the Buick timing cover & go back to the distributor driving the oil pump.


RDMG
Dave R
Northern Virginia
(108 posts)

Registered:
04/07/2016 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB 4.6L Rover V8

Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: RDMG
Date: November 09, 2018 10:34PM

Here’s what my cover from a 2004 Discovery 4.6 looks like:
A313603C-52A9-42A2-B934-20157C64C85D.jpeg
96F990BA-07B9-4F6B-9678-ECF0C57C7491.jpeg
8EA7E8CC-3CD0-4969-8410-11271A6B7FCE.jpeg

The oil pickup is right at the base of the pump itself, and extends a bit below the oil pan gasket mating surface.

I tried to get a clean shot of the casting where the original Buick 215 pickup galley would be. It’s totally blanked off.

Based on the internals of the pump and cover, it looks like if you drill out the original galley for the oil pickup, you would hit a pressurized galley. Double check my thinking on that, because I may be wrong. I think the brass bolt/plug at the base of the cover is the “out” for an oil cooler, and that galley seems connected to whatever is behind the vestigial casting for the original pickup.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2018 10:45PM by RDMG.


40indianss
don foote

(37 posts)

Registered:
08/01/2013 04:35PM

Main British Car:


Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: 40indianss
Date: November 10, 2018 12:52AM

Idk if this is helpful but I have a 4.6 with the intermediate timing cover. It uses the gerotor oil pump with the distributor driven by the cam and the tin oil pan that mates with the timing cover. Using a milodon remote oil filter adapter also. 77mgb


RDMG
Dave R
Northern Virginia
(108 posts)

Registered:
04/07/2016 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB 4.6L Rover V8

Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: RDMG
Date: November 10, 2018 07:09AM

Don,

Can you post a photo of your oil filter adapter setup?

I thought the interim/intermediate cover couldn’t fit in an MGB without modifications to the steering rack.


tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(342 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: November 10, 2018 11:01AM

My main concern is where the oil is picked up out of the pan. The TR8/SD1 setup as well as all of the old Buick stuff has a tube and pickup bolted to the bottom of the block. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the late 4.6 pickup straight from the front cover. I'd rather not go down the serpentine front cover rabbit hole if I can avoid it. Plus, I already gave away the pan because it wouldn't fit with a TR8 cross member. There must be a way to make this block oil the same way as the older 4.0/4.6 blocks did. There are a bunch of cheap later Disco IIs around here with the later 4.6L I'd love to grab another one and let the wife drive it until I decide I need another 4.6 more than she needs a Rover, but only if I can solve this oiling issue. Its about time that we as a group figured this out once and for all. Too many cheap later 4.6L engines going to scrap that should find there way into proper British Sports cars.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3515 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: November 10, 2018 11:38AM

Is this what you gave away?

http://forum.britishv8.org/file.php?11,file=889,in_body_attachment=1



MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3515 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: November 10, 2018 11:45AM

doesn't the late 4.6 pickup straight from the front cover.

Yes.

Rover 4.0 4.6 Front Cover.jpg


tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(342 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: November 11, 2018 07:13AM

The pan I gave away was a really nice cast aluminum pan. Question still remains. How do we adapt a later block to run with an early non serpentine front cover? Are we just going to write off all of these later 4.6 engines that are starting to proliferate the junk yards now?


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3515 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: November 11, 2018 09:25AM

No need to write them off for MGB. Jim Stuart managed to install a serpentine belt engine in his B.

What you are are asking has been done many times, mostly in the UK. Basically, install older hardware onto the newer block.

Have you seen this thread?

[forum.britishv8.org]


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3515 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: November 11, 2018 09:59AM

Does your block have the provision to mount the oil pickup to the block, Todd? At some point, Rover quit milling the block for it. I cannot find the date when this happened.


tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(342 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: November 11, 2018 10:56AM

OK took the 4.6 engine out of the bag, and also unwrapped a rebuilt 4.0 I have bagged as well for comparison sake. As I dug thru the parts associated with both engines I remembered a little more about both. First the control 4.0 engine. Its number is 50D, has 9.35 compression, and uses block casting HRC2411. It came out of a 97 Disco, and used the intermediate cover that had the provision for the dizzy, but was not drilled and tapped. Actually have 2 of those covers and I'm not sure where the other one came from. The 4.6 has engine number 08D, casting LCF000250 and has a compression of 9.37. It came out of an 03 Disco II that hit a pole. Destroyed everything in front of the engine and cracked the front cover. Pan and cover are gone, but I do have a pickup tube that extends to where the front cover is. It looks just like the one Carl posted, but the pan was a nice finned cast aluminum pan. Now, to the important stuff. The front of the engine where the two oiling holes are located look identical to the 4.0. They both have the opening in the bottom of the block and the two tapped holes for a standard oil pickup tube. If you blow into the hole on the 4.6, the air goes somewhere. Its not blocked off. I'm really confused now. If the 4.6 drew the old from the pan at the front cover, why is the old pickup open? I'll post some photos soon. Got lots of other BOP/Rover engine kicking around, so I can really compare some stuff.


tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(342 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: November 11, 2018 11:11AM

Here are the 4.6 pics.
100_0137.JPG
100_0138.JPG
100_0139.JPG


tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(342 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: November 11, 2018 11:12AM

And for comparison sake, the rebuilt 4.0 front and a 1980 3.5 from a TR8.
100_0140.JPG
100_0141.JPG


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3515 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: November 11, 2018 11:49AM

GEMS 4.6L V8 conversion to distributor.

[www.mez.co.uk]



RDMG
Dave R
Northern Virginia
(108 posts)

Registered:
04/07/2016 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB 4.6L Rover V8

Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: RDMG
Date: November 11, 2018 01:17PM

Todd,

As far as I can tell, the only oiling differences across 4.6L RV8s are in the front cover, not the block.

My 2004 4.6 block still has the mid-block flange for the traditional pickup, and still has the galley connecting to the front face of the block. My 2004 version of the serpentine front cover does NOT connect to them.

If you’re looking to retrofit an older style cover, pickup, and oil pan, I think you’re good to go.

The last version of the 4.6 front cover blanks off the original oil pickup galley (even though its still machines into the block), and instead draws oil from the base of the cover, using the long pickup tube you have. (My guess is that the last style pickup tube was designed to avoid the two 90-degree bends in the original design pathway, to allow batter suction.)

The remaining mystery is when the pickup tube design changed. There was another recent thread involving a 4.6 into a TR8 where that guy’s Bosch-era 4.6 front cover still used the original pickup galley and tube. Thinking my version of the Bosch 4.6 front cover was the only one, I went back and forth with him about how his mid-block pickup tube wouldnt work. Turns out, to my surprise, that his front cover was set up to draw from it. All I know is that my 2004 version and your 2003 version with the front-end pickup does not.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2018 01:47PM by RDMG.


tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(342 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: November 11, 2018 02:10PM

Well, if thats the case, I think we are in luck. Good to know because the local Facebook market place and Craigslist is full of running sub 2500 4.6L Disco IIs.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5658 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: November 11, 2018 04:38PM

One thing they did with the new pickup tube was to keep it below the pump and uphill all the way. Fewer feed problems that way.

Jim


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3515 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 4.6L oiling differences
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: November 11, 2018 08:23PM

Can you use the intermediate cover & oil pan? Or is that oil pan the same?


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.