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roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3005 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 23, 2019 07:53PM

Dan Jones or anybody ? Serious 4L. motor, "if" I can get the SBF raw forged crank down to 2.8" stroke. art.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3782 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 24, 2019 09:58AM

Do you have to go all the way to 2.8" stroke, Art? Rules requirement? Could stop around 3.00" & still have a buzzin' little engine with a bit more grunt.


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3005 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 24, 2019 01:17PM

If possible, make for 4L. limit of SCCA/GT1. Change cam for road courses. Otherwise build to what the crank will task. TR8 5 spd used a Huffaker 10% fifth and Leyland racing 1-4.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3782 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 25, 2019 10:14AM

Here is a report from Dan Jones over on the V8 Owners Forum. Scroll down 7-8 posts to the one by Daniel Jones.

[www.v8forum.co.uk]


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(269 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: January 25, 2019 11:23AM

> Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?

Here's the info I posted previously.

I thought I'd share some numbers for a set of TA Rover heads I had on a flow bench recently. The heads were first flowed in unported form and then ported by Bob Stiegemeier of Stiegemeier Porting Service (http://stiegemeier.com/) in St. Charles, Missouri USA. In addition to the heads, I dropped off a Willpower single plane intake manifold, exhaust header flange, block and assorted gaskets for mock up purposes. I also dropped off an unported Rover 4.6L cylinder head for comparison purposes. This set of heads started as an assembled unported set from TA Performance with 1.94" diameter intake and 1.6" diameter exhaust valves and an upgraded spring package. We started the evaluation by removing a pair of valves from one cylinder. Bob examined the ports, chamber shrouding, seat margins and valve angles and asked me some questions about the engine the heads will be going on (cross-bolted Rover 4.2L with Carrillo rods, Wiseco forged pistons for a street driven Triumph TR8). He also asked if I was going to run EFI (yes) or a carb, suggesting you can get away with larger ports with EFI. Since the heads were assembled, we decided the best bang-for-the buck would be to work around the existing valve job. Looking at the intake ports, Bob noted the as cast port size was plenty large for my application and thought they should go to 250 CFM easily with only minor work. He also threaded a spark plug into the head and indicated he would do a little chamber work around the plugs and polish the chambers. Bob used to do development work on NASCAR intake manifolds and mentioned getting the port floor of the intake manifold to work with cylinder head port floor was especially critical. Bob pulled out some exhaust port templates and asked about the headers I planned to run (1 5/8" primary TR8 tri-ys). Bob said the shape of the exhaust ports looked good but would need to be made wider. I'd previously contacted the developer of the heads, Mike Tomaszewski of TA Performance, and he had the following to say on porting the TA Rover heads:

"On the exhaust have him start by opening up the exhaust outlet, make the port wider, The port will respond by doing this. Then have him remove very little to none on the back side of the exhaust bowl. Just blend the machined throat area into the back side. He should end up with a slight bump even, on the back side. Blend the rest of the bowl how he sees fit."

The heads were tested at a 28" pressure drop on a SuperFlow 600 flow bench. Intake ports were flowed with a clayed radius around the intake port. No pipe was used on the exhaust except for one test with the stock 4.6L Rover head (noted below). Flow is in cubic feet per minute (CFM) and lift is in inches. Intake valve diameter is 1.94" and exhaust diameter is 1.6". Note that the heads were purchased assembled and Bob worked around the existing valve job. Heads were flowed unported, ported and ported with a 30 degree back cut on the intake valves. Columns are as follow:

1 = out of box intake ports
2 = ported intake, no back cut on intake valves
3 = ported intake, 30 degree back cut on intake valves
4 = out-of-box exhaust ports, no pipe stub
5 = ported exhaust, no back cut on exhaust valves, no pipe stub

 
 Valve  1      2      3      4      5
 Lift   1.94   1.94   1.94   1.60   1.60
 Inch   CFM    CFM    CFM    CFM    CFM
 0.100   67.7   76.8   78.3   47.9   63.8
 0.200  105.4  120.4  129.4   70.2  108.5
 0.300  143.0  173.1  185.1  102.1  146.7
 0.350  164.0  198.7  206.2  114.9  -----
 0.400  185.1  224.2  225.8  126.0  177.0
 0.500  220.9  255.9  251.3  137.2  189.8
 0.600  225.8  -----  252.8  140.4  199.4

Bob noted the flow for the ported intake with back-cut valves was for the first one he did. He got closer to 260 CFM peak on subsequent valves. The exhaust port was sized for a 1 5/8" OD header primary (the larger of the two available tri-y headers for the Triumph TR8). For reference, here's what my ported 1964 Buick 300 cylinder heads flowed with 1.775" intake and 1.5" exhaust valves:

 
 Ported 1964 Buick 300 cylinder head
 Lift 1.775" 1.5"
 Inch   CFM  CFM
 0.100   66   47
 0.200  129  104
 0.300  174  130
 0.350  187  139
 0.400  191  146
 0.500  196  152
 0.600  200  153

I had also previously flowed a stock Buick 300 head with 1.625" intake and 1.312" exhaust valves at 154 CFM intake and 116 CFM exhaust. The unported Rover 4.6L head flowed:

 
  Unported Rover 4.6L cylinder head
  Lift   1.575" 1.350"
  Inch     CFM    CFM
  0.100   60.2   57.4
  0.200  105.4   92.5
  0.300  132.4  103.7
  0.350  135.5  106.9
  0.400  135.5  106.9  (114.8 with exhaust pipe stub)

With minor port work, the ported TA Rover heads flow nearly double the stock Rover 4.6L heads. Bob clearanced the chambers to around 42cc then milled them 0.020" to get them to 37cc. He also installed thin wall bronze sleeves in the pushrod holes. The intake valves had sharp edges around the keepers and damaged some of the valve stem seals during dis-assembly so he smoothed the sharp edges and installed new seals. The intake valves (appear to be SI brand) were out of round so Bob cut them to get them round. The exhaust (Ferrea) were round and needed no adjustment. The intake manifold had a low spot on one of the flanges that he welded up and milled back down. The intake and heads were then port matched on the block. He tested the springs with and without the inner springs. With the inners in place, they are 170 lbs on the seat and 400 lbs @ 0.550" lift. With the inners removed, they are 120 lbs on the seat and 280 lbs @ 0.550". Bob said he can adjust the seat pressure with offset keepers once I decided on the cam. Though I'm considering a hydraulic roller, Bob would really like to see me run a solid flat tappet cam with EDM lifters and beehive springs and spin the engine to 8000 RPM. Given the intake port size, he thought I'd want to run a narrower lobe separation angle than the intake valve diameter (to cubic inches ratio) might suggest, along with a bunch of initial timing and a short advance curve. He also suggested 11:1 compression and thought EFI would work better than a carb with the large intake ports. Given the very strong exhaust port, he thought a single pattern cam would be the way to go. He mentioned that while the exhaust would flow even more with a pipe stub, adding a full length header usually gets it back to what the naked exhaust port flows so he likes to flow them without a pipe stub. Bob was really jazzed about the TA heads and lightweight Rover V8. Bob said he could do better on the intake side starting with a bare set of heads (not working around the existing valve job) and noted there was room on the cylinder head to raise the roof a 1/2" and thought that raising the roof, filling the floor and use a larger intake valve, he could get over 320 CFM out of the intake ports.

Dan Jones


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 25, 2019 03:11PM

Thanks Dan.

How are those heads working out for you? Any issues?

Jim


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(269 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: January 25, 2019 04:52PM

> How are those heads working out for you? Any issues?

They are just sitting on the shelf at the moment, waiting for me to decide on a longer term project (do I spring for a Group 44 TR8 body kit). In the meantime, I have a stock short block 4.2L at the machine shop with ported Rover heads. Turns out the new-old-stock short block needs to be align honed. The shop I use doesn't have the machine for that but are looking to purchase one so it may be a bit of a wait. Spending most of spare time on other project cars (Pantera, Mustang, MR2 turbo, Ford 5.0L and T5 swapped Volvo 245 parts hauler).

Dan Jones



MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3782 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 25, 2019 08:30PM

I was smitten by the Group 44 TR7/8 with flares when we toured Bob Tullius' museum at Sebring during the 2001 V8 Meet. Best looking version of the Wedgie ever.

Tim Lanocha has certainly built a very sweet one.

[www.thewedgeshop.com]


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3005 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 29, 2019 04:11PM

I "know a guy with Huffaker spares..." Agreed, Tullius did best. My built TA's will be race only, so let the flow bench fly...


minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(176 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: minorv8
Date: January 30, 2019 01:30AM

I bought a pair of bare Wildcat heads and ported them myself. Heads are now at a machine shop for valve job and flow testing. Iīll keep you posted...


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3782 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 30, 2019 10:37AM

Please do.


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3005 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 30, 2019 11:42AM

Jukka, I suspect Wheeliie Bars are in your future ?/lol


minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(176 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: minorv8
Date: January 31, 2019 08:52AM

Not really, I doubt that I will ever have enough traction due to limited tire size. I still have leaf springs and making room for wider tires necessitates mini tubs and seriously modded rear suspension. I ran into issues with the engine, I currently have 3 different short blocks in pieces. Just have to decide which will be put back into the car.Oh and I just might replace the gearbox as well... which needs a new crossmember... Itīs a good theing we have aboout 2 ft of snow outside.


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3005 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 31, 2019 11:04AM

If you need to enlarge/change valve reliefs in your pistons, good idea to check valve angle and centerlines. As I recall, Merlins were 13 deg. not std. 10 deg. What transmission ?


minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(176 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: minorv8
Date: February 01, 2019 01:25AM

My plan is to assemble a totally new short block (+20 forged pistons, 6 inch SBC rods, 90 mm stroke) so I donīt have to worry about the reliefs. Or actually have to but pistons will be new ones.

My head guy seems to have other things on his list, tried to contact him yesterday but no answer :-)

R380 gearbox that I rebuilt years ago.



minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(176 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: minorv8
Date: February 27, 2019 01:09AM

OK, I finally got the heads back yesterday. Not exactly the way I wanted, the intake valves were supposed to be back cut but they are not. But what I have is a pair of Wildcats, 1.94 and 1.60 valves, bought as bare versions, ported by myself. The chamber size is currently 43.5 cc and will be machined to final size once I assemble the short block. Parts are now all at home but next week will be spent in USA so nothing happening in the garage.

The flow was measured in liters per second at 25" water and I have converted the values to CFM at 28" water. Flow bench was SF600. Lift is in millimeters and 1 mm is roughly .040". I plan to use a solid cam with about .500" lift for starters.

lift in mm intake CFM exhaust CFM

1 27,8 24,4
2 51,8 43,3
3 72,0 58,1
4 90,1 73,3
5 109,2 87,4
6 128,7 104,0
7 148,6 120,2
8 163,9 135,4
9 182,3 149,3
10 198,8 160,1
11 213,4 170,4
12 226,0 179,3
13 233,1 185,4
14 239,4 189,4
15 243,5 192,6

My Merlin heads (from Real Steel in UK) are about the same up to 0.300 lift but after that they really are no match. At 0.500 lift the Wildcat intakes flow 50 cfm more and exhaust 40 cfm more. So it is fair to assume some kind of improvement in performance... Backcutting the intakes may improve the low lift flow a bit.


minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(176 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: minorv8
Date: February 27, 2019 01:10AM

Oh crap, that looks like sh*t, hope you can read it though.


BeemerNut
Carl Winterbauer

(9 posts)

Registered:
09/07/2019 04:07PM

Main British Car:


Re: Ported flow #'s for TA heads ?
Posted by: BeemerNut
Date: September 07, 2019 10:09PM

Great postings Dan as well Jukka, your flow numbers and knowledge one day on this forum surpassed 15 years digging around other forums only gaining 2% of whats on this great forum. Wow finally stumbled unto a forum covering older engines up to the 4.6 litre. Other forums all about the 5.0 LR3's & LR4's about their low mileage failing timing chains blaming the wrong oils used are the problem BS. Then a "but it's a high tech engine the 5.0 vs your antique push rod engine" attitude. Carry on everyone. Carl......~~=o&o>.......


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