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tr7v8mike
Michael Booth
Sydney, Australia
(10 posts)

Registered:
02/22/2015 10:26PM

Main British Car:
1981 TR7 Rover 4.6

Haltech EMS?
Posted by: tr7v8mike
Date: January 02, 2020 09:57PM

COPIED FROM THE TRIUMPH PAGE

Hi,
I have a RR 4.6L in my TR7. The engine has had some extra work done and I want to swap the Lucas 14CUX for a modern EMS. The car is my daily ride with not-very-serious weekend track work. I looked at Megasquirt, but there are quite a few negative commentaries.

So I am now considering a Haltech Sports 2000. Does anyone have experience with Haltech on a RR? I contacted Haltech and they seemed to know very little about Rangie V8s. Or a reputable Haltech dealer in the UK?

Cheers,
Michael


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5868 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 03, 2020 10:39AM

You might consider also the GM '411 ecm.

Jim


waterbucket
Philip Waterman
England
(82 posts)

Registered:
07/30/2011 01:08PM

Main British Car:
1978 MGB GT

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: waterbucket
Date: January 03, 2020 04:05PM

I have not as yet got to the stage of buying my ECU but what I come across time after time is that your dyno operator will have experience with some makes and none with others, why not ask him what he is familiar with. I too have looked at Megasquirt and have found the price of professionally assembled ECU's is not far off the price of the rest, but this company does actually have a very good name for its Megasquirt offerings;

[www.extraefi.co.uk]

In the UK Emerald has a good name but will not run sequential on a V8;

[www.emeraldm3d.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2020 04:11PM by waterbucket.


tr7v8mike
Michael Booth
Sydney, Australia
(10 posts)

Registered:
02/22/2015 10:26PM

Main British Car:
1981 TR7 Rover 4.6

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: tr7v8mike
Date: January 03, 2020 06:26PM

Thanks Phil,

My dyno guy suggested Motech which was really designed for racing applications and is about 30% more expensive. I'll try your suggestions.

Mike


minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(190 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: minorv8
Date: January 04, 2020 08:43AM

I am running a older Haltech E6X on my Rover V8. I am really surprised of Haltech response. ECU does not really care about the engine be it Rover, Chevy or whatever. You need to choose the ECU based on your needs. What do you want, ignition side: retain distributor, go waste spark or sequential. Injection side: batch fire or sequential. This dictates what ECU you need. Baseline ECUs can't do everything.

My setup is as follows: modified Rover Efi manifold with 44 mm trumpets, 75 mm throttle body at front of plenum, 36-1 Motronic trigger, Ford Zetec crank sensor, MAP sensor, air and coolant temp sensors. Ignition is waste spark with twin Bosch coil packs, same as Range Rover. Pretty basic.

Now issues I have had: the biggest is the ECU itself. Being an "old" unit it has serial port connection, not USB or even Bluetooth that some nowadays have. All modern laptops lack serial ports. Sure, there are serial to USB adapters, some work and some don't. The Haltech software allows 4 COM ports, 1 to 4. I have three different laptops and these COM ports are already taken. So, my serial to USB typically is COM 8 or 9. Thing is, you only have COM 1-4 to choose from and that is it. Major PITA.

That is the first tip: check that you have required means of connection.

Next issue was the mismatch of components. Haltech manual boldly states that you can use Motronic trigger wheel. Well, when doing the initial setup and checking things my cranking revs were around 2300 rpm. While figuring that out I contacted Haltech in Oz and got a reply that " well, our ECU has never really worked with Motronic wheel ". So why is it in the manual ? Turns out my crank sensor did not like the trigger wheel. Next sensor option could recognise the teeth but not the missing one. Now the cranking revs were ok but the spark was all over the place. Third sensor worked and then engine ran. So, Haltech support was full of crap.

More to come...


minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(190 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: minorv8
Date: January 04, 2020 10:27AM

Another problem is the Haltech manual. It lacks vital info. For example, you can change settings online but some require switching the power off and then back one. Some settings are stored online. One particular setting was trigger wheel tooth offset. Whatever the value in the software did not affect then ignition timing at all. Tip from a friend who also runs a E6X: switch the power off after changing the value. Hey presto, that worked ! Also, ECU has some parameters that are not found in the manual.

Fuel and timing base maps are pretty easy to change. Correction maps are trial and error, like basically in every older ECU. Modern ones may have closed loop with wideband lambdas, you need to decide if you want them. I have a WB lambda but only for air/ fuel ratio gauge. I don't have knock sensors.

If yoju have specific questions please let me know.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5868 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 04, 2020 11:31AM

There were two big reasons I got away from the aftermarket controllers. First, reliability, and second, capabilities. Third was cost. Megasquirt started out as hobby equipment and despite the current crop of fully assembled units it still is. Most aftermarket ones are similar. Compare them to the GM controllers and that becomes clear. You can now download a tuning software called TunerProRT as freeware which lets you delve deeply into the GM 12200411 ('411) controller. Most easily found on 2001 and 2002 Chevy Silverado pickup trucks, it costs $40 at the pick-n-pull which compares pretty favorably with the $700 and up for MS and Haltech, etc. A pin swap and change in bank assignments changes the firing order. The most difficult thing about fitting this controller is using the 24 tooth crank trigger wheel and pickup, but it can be fitted to the damper and is inexpensive.

I picked up two extras for spares. Takes maybe 5 minutes to swap out.

For me this has been a recent development and I expect to be up and running in the next week or two as I've overcome all but one hurdle and it appears to be a small one with several solutions and only applies to boosted operation. However the reliability is proven, which is something MS can't come close to touching. I've been in this game for 20 years and used Ford, MS, and now GM and it is very clear to me which one is the best for this type of use. You need reliability first and foremost. Then accessibility to all the tuning parameters with the ability to change anything that might affect your tune, and finally low cost. This controller checks the boxes. Others may check one or two but that really isn't good enough.

Jim



minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(190 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: minorv8
Date: January 04, 2020 12:51PM

Sounds good Jim ! Unfortunately outside US they are not so easily available and if you find one the price is definitely more like 400 bucks.


88v8
Ivor Duarte
Gloucestershire UK
(719 posts)

Registered:
02/11/2010 04:29AM

Main British Car:
1974 Land Rover Lightweight V8

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: 88v8
Date: January 05, 2020 02:54PM

You don't mention the Holley Sniper. Does this fall into the hobby category? Or is it too new to tell?

Ivor


waterbucket
Philip Waterman
England
(82 posts)

Registered:
07/30/2011 01:08PM

Main British Car:
1978 MGB GT

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: waterbucket
Date: January 05, 2020 04:01PM

Jim
The problem for a lot of us (read me) is that while we may be happy to rewire a car we are or feel we are out of our depth regarding reprogramming ECU's. Now if there was a GM ECU's guide book for dummies so that I could run a Ford V6 off a GM ECU I would be at the head of the queue. I have read on your previous postings that you are unhappy with Megasquirt but are the newest ready built ones as unreliable as you have found?
Although not ready to order yet I am drawn to the ME442 ECU as used by Flying Miata and Rocketeer use pricey but just 50 miles from where I live! That's why I recommended that Michael spoke to his Dyno operator, dyno time is expensive so if the operator is well versed with the ECU an expensive ECU can become "cheap".
So I am caught in the conundrum of Megasquirt @ 665 plus home made loom and extra sensors + lots off Dyno time or ME442 @ 1450 but uses all existing sensors and come with a factory made loom and small dyno time? or the multitude that lie in between all with a home made loom.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2020 04:14PM by waterbucket.


tr7v8mike
Michael Booth
Sydney, Australia
(10 posts)

Registered:
02/22/2015 10:26PM

Main British Car:
1981 TR7 Rover 4.6

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: tr7v8mike
Date: January 05, 2020 05:05PM

There doesn't seem to be a brand that isn't criticised widely. I might try calling some EMS installation specialists around me and see what they have to say.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4414 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: Moderator
Date: January 06, 2020 03:59AM

I've always advocated using modern "OEM" electrical and electronic components whenever practicable. That said:

I don't have any regrets about choosing MS3-Pro back in 2014. Five years without any hardware concerns at all. With MS3-Pro controlling both fuel and ignition, I've driven my car through 46 U.S. states plus Ontario. 20 or 30 thousand miles. All weather. High and low altitude. It's been perfectly solid.

You can download and read the manual here: [www.ampefi.com]

The manual is over 300 pages! I doubt any alternative system is as well documented. I'd recommend folks read the MS3-Pro manual even if they're getting ready to install or tune a different EFI system.

DIYAutoTune was quite helpful back when I was doing my installation.

MS3 has a great online community, here: [www.msextra.com] (Note: over 10,000 message threads.)


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5868 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 06, 2020 11:13AM

Good to see you back here Curtis.

MS3 is much improved, no question about that, and they did finally get around to using a sealed connector which is also good. Hard to say what the quality of internal construction is, but it certainly is no longer cheap, so carrying a spare is sort of out of the question.

I'm pretty new to the GM ECU and still learning, but there is no way MS will ever catch up. They just don't have the resources behind them. I've just learned that the entire 4000+ lines of the 12200411's code was an open book 10 years ago, and at that time it was already being used on SBF V8's as well as 6 cylinder engines and there's no reason it could not have been used on 4 cylinders as well. It probably has been. I have no idea where they are with the current units but based on history it should be usable. Maybe someone here knows. It is going to be more complex, that's plain to see.

I think it's great that some of you guys are able to go out there and buy whatever you want and make it work. If I did that I'd have to just forget about some of the other things that I want to do, so I tend to slice the budget as thin as I feel like I can get by with. I guess most of us do that, and occasionally make an exception. My exceptions tend to be things like heads, superchargers, and maybe once in a long while something like an MCI bus. You make your choices and you live with them. I lived with MS long enough to know It no longer satisfies my needs. It appears there was a basic programming flaw in the MS2 code that created an idle surge in my application and none of the present crop of MS whiz kids on the forum had any ideas or inclination to resolve it.

When I say it was a programming flaw I don't do so lightly. Datalogs clearly showed that injector flow changes led the surge cycle. In other words, the injectors began to cut off before the engine speed began to decrease, and increased before engine speed began to come up. The engine was just doing what it was told to do. Isolating the sensor inputs did nothing to change this and we tried everything they or I could come up with until the point where everybody just gave up on it. There was no sensor input that was leading the cycle so it had to be in the controller. At that point it had to be either the code or some bizarre hardware issue in the controller. Either way it was the MS2 that was causing the problem. Then the chip failed. Again. One would naturally suspect at this point some sort of external problem and this was thoroughly investigated with no cause ever found. This was a 15 year old installation on which all wiring integrity was confirmed.

Maybe MS3 would have done the job, maybe not. But regardless I was going to have to rewire the car to use it. And then there was the history of failures. The time had come for a change.

Now one thing is certain. GM has trillions of miles on their equipment. It is not conceivably possible for MS to ever touch that kind of a service record. They have a development team that puts the entire aftermarket industry combined solidly in the shade. Their testing program is second to none and far more refined than any aftermarket manufacturer will ever achieve. So it should come as no surprise that the controller they use is among the best in the industry. When you add to that their apparent openness to sharing what's inside the box with the hot rodding community it simply makes an unbeatable combination. IDK, maybe Dodge has a similar attitude? Anybody know for sure? Regardless, I'm going for reliability. GM it is.

Jim


waterbucket
Philip Waterman
England
(82 posts)

Registered:
07/30/2011 01:08PM

Main British Car:
1978 MGB GT

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: waterbucket
Date: January 06, 2020 12:51PM

Jim
It isn't a case that we can just go out and buy what we want, we just don't have the knowledge to do what you are doing with the GM ECU. In many ways I am very much like you, loathe to spend more than is needed particularly if there is a get around that works just as well. In my case a ME442 ECU with a factory loom costs more than my restored GT body shell (250 on ebay one xmas day!) the 3.31 MGC rear axle 300 (wire wheel hub one side lugs the other) 2 RX8 5 speed gearboxes cw carbon fibre propshaft 100, NOS AJV6 inlet manifold cw injectors and loom 75. By now you have the picture, I buy when I think the price is good but this brings me back to the ECU problem
I have no knowledge of electronics, sure I can solder wires to pins and this leads me to what I consider my real choice to buy at the lower end ie Megasquirt or pay 50% more for a very much more sophisticated ECU manufactured less than 50 miles from where I live and where they have their own dyno. Now if some enterprising person was to put together a kit comprising the GM ECU, a quality loom available for 4,6 and 8 cylinder engines at a reasonable price then I might just be the first in line.
Over here many dyno operators will not touch Megasquirt, generally the reason given is the bad wiring done by the car convertor, where they spend a couple of hours sorting electrical problems before they can tune the car. This is possibly where it has got a reputation for unreliability. Incidentally MS3 Pro costs 1095 over here


Bland
Tim Bland
Oregon
(30 posts)

Registered:
01/22/2017 11:15PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 Rover 3.5

authors avatar
Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: Bland
Date: January 06, 2020 08:40PM

You may want to take a look at Omex. They are based in the UK and have experience with Rover engines.

Tim



IaTR6
Dennis Costello
Central Iowa
(151 posts)

Registered:
12/29/2007 02:53PM

Main British Car:
'73 TR 6 '97 Explorer 5.0

Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: IaTR6
Date: January 07, 2020 12:56PM

I'm following along on this thread even though I have a working Megasquirt MSII. I don't plan to remove it, but
if there is a need, I might consider the GM ECM. Besides, I'm a geared junkie and love this stuff!
I don't find enough detailed explanation on the tooth alignment of the reluctor wheel, and all of what there is relates to the
GM engines that were originally equipped with the internal wheel. I did find a copy of a Holden manual that does go into some detail,
and perhaps pages 30 and 32 are of some interest. They describe the two rows of teeth and their spacing, and the cam position signal.
Those who are inclined can look.
[www.bowlingss.com]
I hope this is useful.
Dennis


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5868 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 07, 2020 04:26PM

Yes, the positioning information on the 24 tooth wheel and pickup is sparse and I am not aware of a comprehensive page that gives all the information in one spot. The 24 tooth wheel must have the correct side facing forward, and then be rotated properly relative to the keyway. The pickup must be centered on the wheel and rotated to the correct angle as well. I would include more detail but do not recall it, and I wouldn't post it anyway until I have the engine running correctly in case it is not correct, however that info is in my 340 thread I believe, as I showed construction details. It was researched from my online sources and I believe it to be correct based on the available installation jigs. No guarantee though for the next couple weeks or so.

The 24 tooth wheel is not hard to mount to the damper. Nor is the pickup hard to mount. Note that the cam sensor signal is a 180 degree signal. High for one engine rotation and low for the other. I'm not sure how critical this is but a shorter pulse could create an error code.

As far as the wiring itself is concerned, that is not particularly hard, just meticulous and time consuming. It also is not difficult to exceed the standards of the stock wiring. A good place to begin is by pulling the harnesses from a couple of Silverados. It's not necessary to get absolutely everything, for instance you will never use the second set of O2 sensors. But the more you do get the less chances of having to go back. And with 2 harnesses you can almost always find enough wire of the correct size and color. Pinouts are available and pin swapping in the ECU connectors is quite easy. I mapped out the harness and at some point I can make that info available to everyone who wants it. Right now it's on a yellow pad in pencil though.

Heat sealed adhesive lined butt splices work very well here, especially the smaller clear ones. You can get them from DelCity.com. Yes they are expensive at nearly a dollar a pop but they are worth it. You should strive to keep oxygen away from all of your conductors, especially at switches and termination points. That is how new car makers get 1/4+ million mile reliability. Note OEM wiring all uses the new cross-linked insulation that is vastly superior to vinyl, and has done for decades, at least since the 90's.

One point I would like to stress. It's a very good idea to shield all inputs, and that means enclosing the signal, power, and return leads in a braid that is grounded to a common shield grounding point. I found a 22 gage 2 and 3 lead shielded teflon insulated cable that I used for that which has worked very well. It's roughly 3/16" in diameter. Terminated with butt splices and a heat shrink overlay sleeve it looks professional. I have a good dozen shielded leads on my car's system. Anything you do to cut down noise on either the sensor or the power side will be beneficial if done correctly. And learning that is not hard.

Now for you guys overseas I realize the Silverado is a bit of a unicorn. But there is a GM car of some sort that used the '411 controller in the years around 2000-2002 so that would be your go-to. Holden or whatever, it might take some research but your local garage guy would know.

I think this currently represents the biggest bang for the buck but I can't fault anyone for going with the recommendations of his local tuner, as that can often mean the simpler/easier approach. Likewise for an American V8 retrofit I cannot fault the 4bbl TBFI. I don't think it gets much easier than that.

Jim


turbodave
dave cox

(22 posts)

Registered:
04/30/2018 03:00PM

Main British Car:


Re: Haltech EMS?
Posted by: turbodave
Date: January 09, 2020 08:32PM

If you are in the UK, then any of the UK based systems (Omex, Emerald, DTA, Link, Lumenition, and several others I can't think of) all have the Rover V8 crank sensor in their basic setup, and will very likely have startup maps. I have an Emerald in one of my cars and the only thing I can fault it on is the datalogging requires the laptop to be plugged in while recording...


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