Engine and Transmission Tech

I'm takin the plunge. I bought "dyno used" ,and want to, "CMA" to prevent "2 piece valves". I'm told , X-ray in two veiws? I'm told,Berrillium/Bronze guides ONLY! 2.15" int's and 1.6" and 1.61" exh. Monster long, I'll shorten and use lash caps. Personal experiences welcome. Thanks, roverman.

Art,

No personal experience but I read somewhere that you have to fit the guides you stated and have to be very careful as the metals used in the valves or possibly the guides can be a serios health hazard so check it out carefully.

Kevin.

Not going high tech on us are you Art? What's next, titanium pistons and con rods? Now there's a motor a leadfoot could love! Somehow I had a feeling the breakup of the Soviet Union would put a lot more unobtainium on the market, with their *huge* reserves. Go for it! Can't wait to see how it turns out.

Jim

Del West? or what

And what. Probably Ferrea and Del West.Look muy bueno.Yes, Berrillium is bad bugabuga to things that breathe,But, "Ti" likes it, and I want to keep him happy. I can't help myself! I was at a swapmeet and went onna "binge"! Found a place to X-ray, 2 shots, serialized, for approx. $4-$5 ea.Cheeper than a ,"scrambled" motor.Oh did I mention the carbon fiber wrist pins and push-rods? I think I'll pass on X-ray-in them - too "stealthy". "It's only too much RPM when the motor becomes variable displacement". roverman.

Titanium needs a soft seat like cast iron or beryllium-copper. You do
not want to use a hardened seat like stellite. My Dad's 1937 Chrysler
Imperial has stellite seat and they are very hard, much harder than the
induction-hardened cast iron seats used in most unleaded fuel heads.
It was tough to do a valve job just on the Chrysler using just stones,
though there are special cutters available. Certain cast iron seats
may be compatible, others may not. It depends upon what they Rockwell
test to be. My Ford Motorsport A3 high port heads have the original cast
iron seats and guides which Ford Motorsport claim are compatible with
titanium. If you run a leaded fuel, that will help. I discussed the
issue of titanium valves briefly with a local circle track engine builder
and he walked over to a drawer and pulled out a set of titanium valves
that were razor sharp. He said it happened after only a couple of
weekends of racing. I'm not sure what he was running for seats but
I'd guess there was some sort of dissimilar materials issue, though
it could have also been a fuel issue.

Titanium tends to gall easily. To counter that, most titanium valves
have moly impregnated stems, along with hardened steel tips. You don't
want to lap titanium valves but a properly cut seat shouldn't need to
be lapped, particularly if you're running an interference seat geometry.

Here are the CV Products Titanium Valve Instructions:

"Steel tips or lash caps are recommended for all engine applications.
Steel tipped valves should be faced off square removing approximately
0.002" of material. If lash caps are used, they should be flat
parallel and free from tooling marks. Be sure the lash camp does not
contact the retainer or valve keepers.

Valve face may be machined or ground as with other valves. When
grinding, remove small amounts, 0.001" or less, and dress the wheel
often to prevent loading.

Valve seats should be a soft material such as nodular iron, bronze,
or beryllium-copper, all heat treated to Rc 30 or less.

Any standard valve guide material may be used with a *minimum*
clearance of 0.001" intake and 0.0015" exhaust. Seals may be used,
however some oil must be allowed to enter the guide.

All titanium used has been inspected and certified conforming to
the Dept. of Defense Material Specification, Mil-T-9047 of latest
issue."

I believe GM is using titanium for the intake valves only in the
current Z06 engine. You might want to see what they are doing to
make them last.

I was also offered a set of new-old-stock TRW titanium valves for one
of my Ford 351C engines at a fraction of cost. The valves have steel
stips and coated stems (seller said Teflon but my guess is molybdenum).
I was specifically warned off of those particular 1970's era valves:

"Also, having had a fair amount of experience with TRW's titanium valves in
Boss, FE, and 351C heads, I would not recommend them. No matter what guide
material we used, we always galled the guide with TRW's eventually. We
actually began hoarding the sodium valves when they were being phased out
as they maintained power longer. Ask any engine builder who's valves they
are using or used? We love (ed) all of the TRW products in their day
because of their quality vs cost. Unfortunately time and the economy has
passed them by."

He went on to say:

"Why are titanium valves used in the first place? Why did they come about?
Long before titanium valves there were sodium-filled, hollow-stemmed,
valves. They were originally designed for severe duty use in trucks or
stationary engines. They were lighter and would dissipate heat at a
greater rate to prolong life. In the early sixties some FoMoCo and Mopar
engineers discovered that these types of valves could successfully be
applied to their racing engine programs as valve failure was ever
increasing as the RPMs came up. Again as RPMs increased to the unheard
range of 7000 for more power, valve failure once again became an issue.
Spring pressures, cam lifts all grew. Soon engineers began experimenting
with different materials and designs. Hollow lifters, tapered push rods,
stellite and titanium valves. Titanium was not a new alloy in the mid 60's,
but the technology to machine it was very expensive. It was pretty much
relegated to the aerospace and defense industry. As automotive engineers
shared information with aeronautical people, some guys got the bright
idea to try titanium in automotive applications. The first problem that
a rose was compatibility with guide material as the expansion of titanium
was so radically dissimilar. TRW being the automotive giant of the industry
was tapped to produce many of these specialized valves for not only Detroit,
but the aftermarket industry. They had the resources and OEM behind them.
Soon it was discovered that raw titanium product would eat away any other
metal that it came in contact with so coatings were developed to manage
the wear. As fuels became more exotic, the coatings could be washed away
and gauling and wear became a factor once again. Eventually coatings were
developed to deter wear and production techniques were also fine tuned.
Now, when should or shouldn't you use titanium valves?

Titanium valves have come a long way since TRW produced them. Coatings,
machining processes, valve seat materials have all improved. On the other
hand, fuels have changed dramatically. Even in racing fuels, lead
percentages are very low. Lead has always been a softener or cushion for
valves and seats, not an octane booster. It is the general consensus of
top engine builders that titanium valves should only be used in extreme
duty applications, in aluminum heads. Titanium valves will beat seats to
death, especially with spring pressures over 250 lbs. The expansion of the
aluminum head allows the seat to move in the head so as to absorb some of
the shock and heat and cool the valves more evenly. Titanium valves are
very brittle, and although strong, are more susceptible to super heating
and cooling. The aluminum heads help to keep the valves cooler. Before
Nascar went to aluminum heads, broken valves were very common as most of
you might remember. Engine builders went to great lengths inventing top
oilers to help cool springs and valves. Today's high quality domestic or
European stainless steel valves are made light and strong. They also offer
the benefit of better heat control. 90% of the engines that have titanium
valves today are using them for the weight savings only. Nascar, NHRA/IHRA
Fuel classes and Pro Stock. And any other sustained high RPM competition
engines. What you must remember is that these are high maintenance,
DISPOSABLE engines. These valves rarely if ever see more than one event
before they are discarded or sold. We once took a used titanium valve and
shot it with freon. We then whacked it with a hammer to see what would
happen. Guess what? It snapped! We tried the same experiment with a
stainless Victory valve. The hammer just bounced. By the way, my friend at
Joe Gibbs racing has informed me that they have gone away from titanium
valves in all of their super speedway engines. Failure rate was just too
high. Titanium is a wonderful alloy that has it's place in many engine
components. Even if they were legal in my SS engines, I do not think that
I would ever use them with iron heads. I would not think twice about using
them in aluminum heads though, but only in extreme high RPM applications
like my own. 7500 RPM or less, I think that they would actually hurt
performance as they will beat up the seat so quickly that you would lose
seal. Unless you are a maintenance fanatic like I am, and like pulling your
heads apart every 5-10 passes for a "look see" I would stay away from
titanium valves."

Dan Jones

Thanks Dan. Fortunately, the're going in a drag motor, using E85 or E98. Smidgeon of ecodeisel for lube? Slower closing ramps for reduced shock loads to Ti valves. Ferrea calls their guides for Ti valves, "copper-bronze". Lower product liability insurance than calling it, Berrillium copper bronze"? Hope to run this set-up in TA heads. We'll see. roverman.

Well you know, the 215 had several drag racing records, like first to exceed x mph and such, so there's some potential there for sure. Sounds like you're building a true monster motor. Ride On man, Ride On!

Jim

Somebody poked Dan…

Yeah, kinda "cagey" on his answerrzz, ain't hee? " Don't listen to em', Dan, It's actually quite refreshing to hear from someone who knows whatdahell their talkin bout, or a least sounds like they do. roverman.