Engine and Transmission Tech

I've got my notched cross member in my 79 MGB. I've removed the 302 from my Fox body donor car and I've got it jammed into the MGB engine bay and now I have few questions for you guys that have "been there done that" before I find out the hard way.

I'll be acquiring a V belt short water pump and I guess I need a timing cover to match it. I know the explorer pump and timing cover will work but will a timing cover from a 94 or 95 5.0 Mustang work with the explorer pump? Or are those covers for reverse flow and not applicable to a traditional flow pump?
When you position the engine do you position is such that the carb mount plane is parallel to the car (same as to the ground)? Or is there another rule of thumb like getting the space between the oil pan and harmonic balancer just above the steering rack and getting the transmission parallel to the ground?
There is a small tab cast into the block on the lower front passenger side of my engine that might touch the frame rail. Anybody run into the same situation? I might just cut it off.
I've read somewhere, but can't find it right now, that the MGB transmission support can be used with the T5. If that's true what modifications do you make to the support?
The bell housing is touching the tunnel on both sides and it looks like I just need to hammer the tunnel in about a half inch on each side. Anybody else had to do this?
The drivers side valve cover/head is right up against the fire wall transition up near the steering column. Has anybody had to massage that area of the fire wall?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Oops, it's a 77 MGB not a 79.

I was going through all the posts in this forum and found the answer on the angle of the intake manifold carb mount. Seems to be in the range of plus or minus 3 degrees.

Hi Steve, sounds like you're making some good progress. Here are some answers...

I'll be acquiring a V belt short water pump and I guess I need a timing cover to match it. I know the explorer pump and timing cover will work but will a timing cover from a 94 or 95 5.0 Mustang work with the explorer pump? Or are those covers for reverse flow and not applicable to a traditional flow pump?
-- not sure, on this one. The explorer & I'm pretty sure the 5.0 t-birds use the same short nose set up. Not sure which direction the 94/95 mustang pumps spin but bet google would know.

When you position the engine do you position is such that the carb mount plane is parallel to the car (same as to the ground)? Or is there another rule of thumb like getting the space between the oil pan and harmonic balancer just above the steering rack and getting the transmission parallel to the ground?
-- generally you want the carb mount flange to be level front to back & left to right

There is a small tab cast into the block on the lower front passenger side of my engine that might touch the frame rail. Anybody run into the same situation? I might just cut it off.
-- ok to cut it off. I cut a slit of metal out of the frame rails from the area between the cross member mounting holes & the inboard lips, then bend them over & welded up the line. I have some pics if they'd help. Whether you need to do that or not depends on how low you mount the engine. Sounds like you're using the stock cross member; if so, that shouldn't be needed.

I've read somewhere, but can't find it right now, that the MGB transmission support can be used with the T5. If that's true what modifications do you make to the support?
-- there's nothing overly special about the tranny support, just modify it to hold a T5 mount. The thing you'll want to pay attention to is the angle -- you want the tail shaft angled down somewhere in the 3 degree range (3-5* is a good rule of thumb). your differential will be angled up the same angle. The idea is you want a bit of an angle (equal & opposite between tranny output & differential) for the universal joints to work properly. google "pinion angle" for more info.

The bell housing is touching the tunnel on both sides and it looks like I just need to hammer the tunnel in about a half inch on each side. Anybody else had to do this?
-- that's pretty common. My tranny is off a 94/94 5.0 mustang; it has a 1" longer input shaft & a different bell housing due to the longer input shaft so it's a bit different so your situation may be different. I was able to use a hammer to get the left (driver) side to clear. On the right, I cut a section out & fabricated a replacement cover with extra tranny side room & weleded it in -- again, i have some pics.

The drivers side valve cover/head is right up against the fire wall transition up near the steering column. Has anybody had to massage that area of the fire wall?
-- If you're using the stock cross member, I'm surprised that's where your motor is hitting. You should have the space between the balancer & oil pan lip straddling the steering rack. When I set mine in that way I had space btwn the back of the heads & the firewall. It's been a while, but seems like it was somewhere between 1/4" & 1/2"

Timing cover - from 79 on up you can use pretty much any cover. Very early covers had provision for dipstick. You should be good to go. If you are in doubt, I have an early cover that you can have when I'm done fitting my engine.

Rob,

Been a while since we communicated and thanks for the information. Some clarification on the donor car and engine - I bought the 88 Thunderbird from a Ford mechanic a year ago. It originally was a 6 cyl car and he put a built 302 in it, so I really don't know what year the engine is. Nor do I know what T5 I have but I'll figure that out.

Last night I moved the engine around a bit and got it to where the carb base is fairly level. The engine position now looks closer to many of the photos on this site but still the head is against the fire wall and limiting any more rearward positioning of the engine. The top back of the intake manifold, a performer, is at about the same height as the heater shelf. The gap from the rear of the intake manifold to the heater shelf looks too large as compared to the observations I made in Tennessee a few years ago.
The oil pan lower front lip is more or less touching about a half inch aft of the top of the steering rack, the front of the oil pan is about 1/8 inch behind the rack and the balancer is well clear of the front of the rack. I took some measurements and the shifter while in neutral will hit about an inch forward of the existing shifter hole in the console.
When I find out why it won't go back any farther it'll probably be one of those "well duh" moments.
I won't have time to mess with it for a couple of days as the wife and I are going camping.


Steve Melfi

I have a '94-'95 mustang engine and the rack sets the motor position. The rack just barely fits between the damper and the oil pan, there's really no room for adjustment. This is on a chrome bumper car, so you have more room to play with in your car. Larry Embrey used to have a website that had comparison photos of the various timing covers and water pumps, it's long gone. I don't know where the differences are, but I know the '94-'95 stang setup is the tightest to the motor.

Steve, post a pic from up under the front showing the balancer, steering rack & oil pan lip. And another pic showing how the engine is sitting in the engine bay from above. It should be pretty easy to tell if you have it in the "right" position from those 2 pics.

Steve,

I may be wrong on this but from my memory my friend had a built up 302 that had 351 W heads on it. I believe they are larger heads( may be your firewall tightness issue)? My friend also used larger Chevy valves in those heads. It did make one powerful engine in a 1970 Ranchero SP?

Just a thought!

Steve, Attached are a couple of photos that might help engine location. Left rear head is about 3/8" from the firewall. Pan is about 5/16" behind the steering rack casting, Harmonic balancer is about 3/16" up & fwd of the steering rack. Don't get hung up on keeping the intake carb face parallel to the ground - if you did that, engine angle would be at 7-8 degrees. Carb performance will not be an issue. A 3 degree engine angle is about right - your carb mounting face will be closer to parallel with the hood (which is actually beneficial for air cleaner to hood clearance.)
The right forward lug on the engine will end up about 1/4" from the framerail - mine has not hit the rail but lug removal is an option.






I've found that the engine will find it's own location when clearances to the various interference points are achieved.....and, yes, there will be some hammer messaging done to accomodate the bellhousing protrusions.

Thanks for all the input and information guys. It's been very helpful.

We got back from a 3 day camping trip yesterday and I went into the garage last night, wrestled the engine around a bit and I think I'm in decent shape with the engine placement. Maybe today I'll have some time to identify where I need a little more clearance, pull the engine and determine how I'll go about gaining the clearance - hammer vs cut and weld.

Basically from all the input you've provided this is what I've got.
In the front it seems the oil pan flange to steering rack clearance will be the determining factor on how low the engine front will go. The fore and aft engine position will be determined by the steering rack to oil pan and balancer clearances. The engine/trans angle will be two or three degrees down at the back.

My "Well Duh" moment occured when I realized I don't need to get the engine back farther since the steering rack is already between the oil and pan and balancer

I'll eventually post some pictures.

Steve

I now have the engine and transmission fitted nicely in the car. My next step will be installing the explorer timing cover and water pump so I can make sure I'll have no crank pulley to sway bar interference. I intend to use V belts but I'm stumped on V belt pulleys. I can't find any info on what Ford V belt crank (four bolt damper) and water pump pulleys will work. I've been all over the internet looking.

Does anybody know where I can find the info?

This might be a time to rummage around your local salvage yard and look for vintage '80's Fords....at least that's where my pulleys came from.
For reference, the crank pulley is a double groove Ford # D00E 6312 with the larger (outer) sheeve cut off which then leaves the remaining drive sheeve at an overall dia of 6-11/16”. The water pump pulley is something I found in the junkyard and has a pulley dia of 5-3/8 but the application is unknown. While the crank pulley has a 1" offset to the front of the engine, the WP pulley has a 1" offset to the rear....belt alignment is close to perfect.

The alternator mounting bracket can then be tailored for belt alignment.

I’m ready to install the motor mounts and have a few questions.

I'll be using mounts/towers I obtained from Rob Ficalora who got them from Bill Guzman who I think used Graham Creswick’s design. I believe these are referred to as the 64 falcon mounts.

When you position the mount towers prior to tacking them to the frame how to do allow for the amount of compression that will be imposed on the rubber mount blocks when the weight of the engine is applied? I don’t know of a way to have the engine resting on the mounts/towers before I tack the towers to the frame and for now I figure I’ll tack them with no engine weight on them and then once they are welded on and I install the engine I’ll use shims between the engine and mounts to get the engine back to the correct height.

I have the cross member with new red poly bushings bolted to the car. If I weld the towers on with the cross member attached to the car will I destroy the red poly cross member to frame bushings?

Are there any tricks to tacking the towers to the frame?
My current plan is to have the engine position fixed somehow and the towers and mounts bolted to the engine. Then I’ll get under the car and tack weld the towers to the frame, remove the engine and weld the towers to the frame.

One last thing. I have a front to rear intake manifold carb mount angle of zero as the engine is positioned now with the front oil pan lip about a quarter inch off the steering rack and with the transmission bolted to the transmission cross member. That‘s good, right? With shims I can raise or lower the trans tail shaft an inch or so.

Steve

Steve,
Bolt on the engine mounts (engine side and frame side brackets), rest the front sump on the front suspension crossmember with a piece of 1/2" plywood as support (assuming that you have notched the front xmbr by about 1-1/2" for sump clearance) - put a jack or stand under the xsmn to get the right height and correct engine angle of about 3 degrees. Check for clearances at the steering rack to engine damper/pulley, xmbr to oil pan and rear valve cover to cowl before welding. (you can fine tune the 1/2" plywood spacer as required by your setup).
The engine needs to be in it's correct location before doing any welding - tacking the front and then raising the xsmn will compromise the engine mount geometry. Those early '60's Mustang mounts will compress about 1/16" with engine weight.
Also ensure that the steering shaft is in it's correct location
Your welding ground cable should be positioned as close to your weld as possible - the xmbr poly bushes will not be affected.

Graham,

I just got back from a vaction or I would have responded sooner.

Why 3 degrees? Is that to make sure there is a bit of angle at the u joints?

Progress update - pictures say a thousand words

Front suspension completely rebuilt - all those bronze bushings etc. I'll tend to the springs after the car moves under it's own power.


Front Clearance - Looks like a lot from the camera angle, but it's not.


Frame altered for remote oil filter adapter


Lug is about a quarter inch away at about 45 degrees up from the frame


I'll send the last three pics in another post

Steve Melfi

Here's three more pics.

Thanks to everyone who offered up advice and tips as I wrestled to get this far.

Engine in place, headers on both sides.


From the front.


From the passenger side



Again, thanks to everyone.

Steve

Great progress Steve! .......you're already half way to Indy.