Steering, Suspension, & Brakes

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to non-driveline mechanical components

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mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 17, 2011 04:12PM

Rob, Some Factory 5 Cobra guys use your idea of 2 separate lines and use 1993-98 Nissan Quest/Mercury Villager mini-van remote reservoir which has 2 chambers and one fill cap. You will still have to find a cap to fit the master and put 2 nipples in. How about a windshield washer cap, or industrial type cap?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 06:23PM by mgb260.


socorob
Robbie
La
(173 posts)

Registered:
09/17/2009 04:42PM

Main British Car:
1963 Sunbeam Alpine Series 2 Ford 2.8 V6

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: socorob
Date: February 17, 2011 11:00PM

Look at the cap for a 1976 nissan f10 master cylinder on rock auto. [www.rockauto.com]
This is the master i have on my car. If you think those caps may work, I can probably get a chance to measure them this weekend. I used the remote reservoir from an 80s mitsbishi galant.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 17, 2011 11:21PM

Robbie, I think the Acura is larger, Rob said 1 11/16". Both ports are D shaped in one hole. I think as long as it's not flush on the divider you would only need one nipple to the remote reservoir.You never know, be worth a look.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2011 08:39AM by mgb260.


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2632 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: rficalora
Date: February 20, 2011 12:25PM

Update -- didn't find a way to make the Acura MC work with a remote reservoir... but, did find a company called "World Trading" while searching on eBay for ones that looked like they might work... they had hundreds listed. Realized they were located close to where I live so I called them up -- net, they let me come down & rummage through what they had -- guy's name was Glenn; couldn't have been more helpful!

Net, I didn't find any 15/16" that would fit w/o doing a remote reservoir and also modifying the mounting hole locations... but, I did find a 7/8" one that needs remote reservoir but it lined up with the existing vertical flange holes. They sold it to me for $25. I've mounted it except the reservoir; will put that on & try it out on Monday. That way I can test the feel beore I modify the pedal box only to potentially have to modify it again (remember it's already painted).

I think the 7/8' will prove to be too soft still, but am checking it anyway for two reasons -- 1st it fits w/o modifying the box... 2nd, I realized my bias valve was set all the way open. I'm not sure, but it seems logical that with the rear bias down, it should direct more fluid to the front & less to the rear?

Also, a question... the 7/8 MC I got has two front outputs... presumaly L & R. Is there any benefit to using both in terms of fluid volume going to the calipers? The MG MC only had 1 so i have a single line to the bias valve to a residual pressure valve & then T out to 2 lines after that. Wondering if using both front MC outputs would help any.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 20, 2011 01:45PM

Rob, The bias (proportioning) valve will provide more or less to the rear,front is a separate circuit. I have seen dual ports front and back,probably for different chassis fit. Sometimes for bleeders. I don't see any reason you can't tee off there instead of a different tee. You would need 2 residual valves then though.I found the 85-89 Isuzu Impulse master has the reservoir you like with 7/8" master. It looks like you could use that reservoir with the 90 Trooper master that comes in 1". if you need a bigger master.Here's a picture from World Wide:
85-90 Isuzu Impulse.jpg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2011 07:15PM by mgb260.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 20, 2011 02:16PM

Another idea for the Acura master, this angled clutch (Isuzu Trooper)cylinder looks like large base,with nipple in lid to remote reservoir.
!BhM1V2QBWk~$(KGrHqUH-CkEsMRCS1FzBLIEDuE6Kw~~_12.jpg


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2632 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: rficalora
Date: February 21, 2011 07:20PM

Ok, this is getting frustrating... I spent 1/2 the day at a pick a part... That clutch reservoir is too small for the acura mc. And with only about 2" between the MC and the hood I haven't found a remote reservoir that can be mounted higher than the MC... Must be a way but I don't see how. I'm waiting on measurements on 2 more masters. If they don't fit I'm down to having the remote output below the mc input or resorting to fabricating a new pedal box to hold dual Wilwood or Tiltons and a bias bar. I'm starting to think that'd be faster and cheaper!



DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: February 21, 2011 09:03PM

Rob,

It is possible to mount the reservior lower than the master. It's not the perfect solution but it works.
The trick is in bleeding the system. You need to get all the air out between the master and the reservoir.
The easiest way to accomplish that is to back bleed the system. You will need a pressure bleeder connected to one of your brakes. The pressure bleeder will feed fluid backwards through your master and fill the reservoir. This will take any air between the two with it. Then its just a matter of always keeping the reservoir full to avoid an air lock.
Back bleeding the entire system is a good idea. The air in the system wants to go uphill. Conventional bleeding tries to make it go downhill. With this method the air gets to go where it wants to and you can easily get all of it out.
A dirt cheap pressure bleeder can be made from a garden sprayer and a few hardware store fittings.
It also takes all the bad words out of clutch bleeding.

Hope that helps.
Cheers
Fred


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 22, 2011 11:50AM

Fred, Good info. I usually use a extra master cylinder cap with tire valve installed and bicycle pump with guage,pump in 20psi. I don't reverse bleed, but use Speed Bleeders. The best way to bleed your brakes! Rob, can you mount the reservoir in the center of your firewall close to the hood,the bottom of the reservoir should be higher than the master cylinder bore there. Fred is right, if you get all the air out it can be lower. I wish I was closer to help you out. Here is a picture of a Cobra with lower reservoirs along fender also David Townsend on this board mounted his there too.
P1010168small.jpg
brakes.jpg



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2011 01:42AM by mgb260.


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2632 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: rficalora
Date: February 22, 2011 03:22PM

Thanks guys -- good to know I can have the reservoir outlets below the MC if needed. I can certainly have the remote reservoirs be mounted toward the middle which is a little higher.

How do you figure the Cobra builder sealed the bottom of those reservoirs? Is there a sealant that is resistant to brake fluid? I thought about doing something similar with a reservoir I found @ the salvage yard. It was deisgned with a hole in the bottom through which a hollow bolt passed & screwed into a threaded MC inlet. To use it as a remote reservior I'd have to replace that bolt with some sort of fastener that I could then connect to the MC. I looked at a bunch of barb fittings for poly tubing etc. at the hardware store, but none had enough surface area at the "nut" part to seal against a washer. Wondering what fittings this Cobra used?

Similarly, is there someplace that you can order the MC rubber inlet seals? I found a reservoir that would work great except the barbs on it were too big for the barb holes on the MC that fit's the MG. If I could find the MC inlet gromets for the same size MC hole (grommet outside diameter) but bigger barb hole (grommet inside diameter)? The OD of the grommets are formed to match a machined depression...

Anyway, you sort of get how my yesterday went.

Most of the above is for my learning... I am still thinking one of the following will be what I end up with:
* regular remote mount reservoir
* The Isuzu MC -- measurements say it should fit
* An '89 jag XJ6 MC (looks promising; 15/16"; waiting for some measurements)


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 22, 2011 05:41PM

Rob, There is an article on the web how the guy with the Cobra did his remotes. I'll try to find it and link. He wanted the Girling style vintage racer look. You can buy those cans new in hardware stores. You can buy bulkhead nozzels in various sizes( 5/16" and 3/8" most commonly used) in straight and 90*in nylon or brass. They use nylon or copper or aluminum crush washers.Should have small hole in cap with diaphram. Excellent brake hose at VW parts outlets. Blue silicone or braided cloth covering. Don't use fuel hose it will soften,swell and seep. Moss has the rubber diaphrams for the Girling lids. Here is another picture of hardware store metal reservoirs and bulkhead fitting:
5281590031_57f9a37b50.jpg
3207.jpg



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2011 02:34AM by mgb260.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 23, 2011 01:11AM

Rob, Here's the link for making your own " Vintage" reservoirs: [www.ffcars.com] Notice the last picture uses threaded AN bulkhead and 90* fitting.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2011 03:13PM by mgb260.


302GT
Larry Shimp

(203 posts)

Registered:
11/17/2007 01:13PM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GT Ford 302 crate engine

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: 302GT
Date: February 23, 2011 05:52AM

Rob;

I experimented with shortening a reservoir by cutting it and plastic welding it together again. It worked well. I bought a cheap plastic welding kit (about maybe $30), There are also people who do plastic welding professionally. The polypropylene (usually) used in reservoirs is easy to work with. Just be sure that the plastic welding rod you use matches the reservoir plastic.


302GT
Larry Shimp

(203 posts)

Registered:
11/17/2007 01:13PM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GT Ford 302 crate engine

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: 302GT
Date: February 23, 2011 07:28AM

Another possibility if the reservoir is not too tall is to heat it with a heat gun and squash it. Do this with the reservoir attached to the master cylinder and with the cap in place; and try to keep the heat away from the ends.

As I think about it, maybe most reservoirs are made of polyethylene, not polypropylene. In any case, if plastic welding, be sure to match the welding rod to the plastic.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 23, 2011 01:54PM

Rob, 92-01 Isuzu Trooper 1". Shortest one yet! Probably needs a spacer in front of flange to move back a little.
92 94 Trooper.jpg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2011 02:43PM by mgb260.



rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2632 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: rficalora
Date: February 23, 2011 09:17PM

I looked at some of those at the salvage yard the other day -- no go. The reservoir is way too tall (which might be resolvable with Larry's plastic welding suggestion) but the real issue is the diameter of the part that passes through the hole in the pedal box is as wide as the MC casting itself... so once you cut the existing mounting ears off for it to fit in the pedal box, there's no place left to drill new mounting holes.

I do really want to find an answer that doesn't require remoting the reservoirs. While not the end of the world, I don't like the idea of the hassle of them being lower than the MC's. I looked at mounting them toward the middle of the firewall & that helps but the hoses would have to dip down pretty low to avoid the hood hinge.

I still think the Trooper ones posted above will fit so I've ordered one via eBay -- price wasn't too bad; comes with the reservoir & the guy measured it for me. If the measurements are close to accurate it will fit & since it's available in 7/8 & 1" (& 15/16 as a reman. according to rockauto) it should work for more folks than just me if it does fit. Shipped from CA today so unlikely I'll have it by the weekend but I'm hoping. I also think the cylinder itself is the same as one used on a few Mitsubishi's just with a different reservoir. If I'm right on that it won't be hard to find down the road.

Oh, I did find the Cobra site that talks about making the Girling looking reservoirs... [www.ffcars.com]. My local HW stores don't have any bulkhead hose barbs that would work -- what they have doesn't have enough of a shoulder on the nut part to use a crush washer. But, I did a quick search on summitracing.com for "an to hose barb" and saw several that looked like they'd work if someone decides to go that route. Even saw some that were 90* instead of just sraight.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 23, 2011 09:33PM

Rob, Sounds like a plan! Which one did you order the 7/8" or 1" ? Maybe the stepped reservoir for Impulse and 7/8" Trooper would fit the 1".


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2632 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: rficalora
Date: February 23, 2011 10:01PM

I ordered the 7/8" one. It's used on several Isuzu's -- Trooper, Impulse, Pickup. I'm confident the reservoir will fit the 1" '90 Trooper MC if the 7/8 proves to be too small. Checked the shipping notice & says it was shipped USPS from CA but is scheduled to arrive on Fri or Sat -- so might actually get to try it out this weekend.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2003 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 23, 2011 11:33PM

For those interested in the separate Girling style reservoirs I just found an easy way to make 90* bulkhead fittings . Use a brass 90* 3/8" for 8mm VW hose or 5/16" for 7mm hose, 1/8" NPT to hose barb. Two 3/8" or 10mm crush washers and two 1/8" NPT Lighting nuts(those thin flat ones found in lighting fixtures and lamps) same thread! Here is a picture of the 90* I'm talking about:
unnamed.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2011 11:54PM by mgb260.


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2632 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 7/8 or 1" Brake master for non-servo pedal box?
Posted by: rficalora
Date: February 24, 2011 12:40AM

Why wouldn't that leak around the threads?
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