Steering, Suspension, & Brakes

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to non-driveline mechanical components

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MG four six eight
Bill Jacobson
Wa state
(297 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 02:15AM

Main British Car:
73 MGB Buick 215, Eaton/GM supercharger

Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: MG four six eight
Date: October 17, 2011 11:33PM

While researching my brake upgrade I came across this handy dandy web site to calculate brake system bias. It's for 4 wheel disc set-ups, but it's kinda cool that you can plug in different caliper, rotor, pads, etc and see what effect it has on front to rear brake bias!

Bill
[www.tceperformanceproducts.com]


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2621 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: rficalora
Date: October 18, 2011 08:20AM

Cool. It should get you pretty close. It doesn't adjust for front/rear weight balance but with most of our cars being close to 50/50 I wouldn't expect that to matter much. From there you have to figure how much bias is changed with each click on your bias valve.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1968 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: mgb260
Date: October 18, 2011 10:22AM

Hi Bill, What is the brake upgrade you are working on?


MG four six eight
Bill Jacobson
Wa state
(297 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 02:15AM

Main British Car:
73 MGB Buick 215, Eaton/GM supercharger

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: MG four six eight
Date: October 18, 2011 11:11AM

Hi Jim

I installed a Fastcars front end, the wider one for flared fendered cars. It comes with Wilwood 4 pot (1.75" piston) calipers and 11.6" vented rotors. I'm in the process of shaving some unsprung weight off of the narrowed 8.75" Mopar rear end that I have been running for years. I switched to a custom length axle in the rear, to better match up with the front end and the more positive off-set wheels that I will be now using.
Now I'm researching a rear disc set-up. I'll have to custom make some brackets due to the slightly longer axles, which should be kind of a fun project!
I talked to Ted and he recommends a Wilwood 4 pot caliper (1.38" piston I think) for an ideal bias with the front and I may end up going that route. However I was kind of hoping to find a caliper that has an intragul e-brake and not have to mess with seperate e-brake calipers!
According to the calculator the Wilwood 1.38" 4 pots would give me front bias of approx .627 with rear Wilwood 11.44" rotors. I can see where this would be just about ideal when factoring in some rear to front weight transfer during braking.
I hoping that if I can find something in a OEM aluminum intragul caliper that is close to those numbers, that would work well!

Bill


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1968 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: mgb260
Date: October 18, 2011 12:46PM

I like the 93-97 Camaro/Firebird (89-92 would be similar but have a ugly counterweight on them). Mazda RX7 85 and up are aluminum also and a little smaller. Camaro 1.59 bore RX7 1.37.
getimageCA88RV13.jpg
getimage.jpg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2011 01:11PM by mgb260.


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2621 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: rficalora
Date: October 18, 2011 04:46PM

Jim, I'm using the earlier Camaro calipers. I simply removed the big [ugly] round weights. The bracket is still there, but it isn't as bad as the weights. They aren't light though. Do you know if the RX7 ones have the same bolt spread & offset?


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1968 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: mgb260
Date: October 18, 2011 07:53PM

Rob, I don't have the calipers to measure but Robbie(Socorob) has the RX7 calipers and could give you the measurements.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2011 07:55PM by mgb260.



MG four six eight
Bill Jacobson
Wa state
(297 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 02:15AM

Main British Car:
73 MGB Buick 215, Eaton/GM supercharger

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: MG four six eight
Date: October 20, 2011 01:23AM

Jim
The Camaro calipers look like a good option. I found another website
Edit: link no worky! ( will re-try latter LOL)
The nice thing about the Centric site is that they show piston diameters along with the pic. There's over 3500 calipers to look at though!!
Attached is some pics
RX-7 = 35mm (1.38") piston, not sure if it's for non or vented rotors
VW MkIV = 38 mm (1.49") piston non-vented rotors
Audi TT = 41mm (1.61") appears to be non-vented judging by the gap in the mounting bracket
RX-8 = 43mm piston, most likely vented rotors (caliper looks like it may be cast iron)
88-91 RX-7 rear caliper.jpg
RX-7
vw mk IV rear caliper.jpg
VW MK IV
Audi TT 41mm piston rear caliper.jpg
Audi TT
mazda rx-8 43 mm piston.jpg
RX-8



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2011 02:15AM by MG four six eight.


MG four six eight
Bill Jacobson
Wa state
(297 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 02:15AM

Main British Car:
73 MGB Buick 215, Eaton/GM supercharger

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: MG four six eight
Date: October 20, 2011 01:29AM

Here is another, Cobalt, Malibu, HHR These are for a solid rotor.

cobalt, malibu rear caliper.jpg

I'm kinda leaning towards using a solid rotor with aluminum hat for weight savings.
ECS sells a VW MKIV upgrade kit that seems to be a decent price and includes hoses. Not sure if they are 38mm or 41mm though, I've heard reports that VW made that type of caliper in both sizes.
[www.ecstuning.com]
The 38mm piston size may be a little small when compared to the larger front Wilwoods
Using a 11.44 rear rotor
35mm rear piston caliper = approx .746 front bias (1.38")
38mm rear piston caliper = approx .715 front bias (1.49")
40mm rear piston caliper = approx .707 front bias (1.59")
41mm rear piston caliper = approx .683 front bias (1.61")
44mm rear piston caliper = approx .646 front bias (1.75")
48mm rear piston caliper = approx .630 front bias (1.89")
35mm 4 pot rear caliper = approx .627 front bias (1.38")

For comparison purposes
Stock front MGB brakes and a 35mm rear piston on a 10" rear rotor calculates out to .702 front bias (depending on pad size used)
Bill



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2011 02:06AM by MG four six eight.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1968 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: mgb260
Date: October 20, 2011 09:34PM

Bill, 85 and up "Turbo" RX7 rear brakes are vented. I was looking at 70's-80's Subaru DL front caliper for large piston (2.12") with parking brake. Earlier ones solid rotor.
getimage subaru loyale.jpg



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2011 02:48AM by mgb260.


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2621 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: rficalora
Date: October 20, 2011 10:47PM

Watch the direction the e-brake pulls. On the B it's easier to route the cable if it pulls toward the middle of the car like the camaro or turbo rx7 ones than ones that pull north/south like the cobalt/hhr one above.


MG four six eight
Bill Jacobson
Wa state
(297 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 02:15AM

Main British Car:
73 MGB Buick 215, Eaton/GM supercharger

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: MG four six eight
Date: October 21, 2011 01:22AM

Jim, I forgot about those older Subarus. I remember the first time that I saw one thinking "whats up with that" then I saw how small the rear brakes were and it made sense!

Rob, I can see where that would be an advantage for sure. Were you able to use a stock e-brake cable(s) with the Camaro calipers? How does the front to rear bias feel on your car when braking?

Bill


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5799 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 21, 2011 08:27AM

That Subaru caliper looks very interesting. If it uses some method other than spinning the piston for retract and pad changes it might be a very good choice. Having to wrestle with a loose caliper, a badly fitting retract tool, a can of brake clean and an electric drill all at once underneath the car while the internals just spin instead of retracting the piston is, in my opinion, no way to go about freshening up the pads. And in the pits it would just be inexcusable. I still can't understand what made the car makers think they could foist that one on us, but they sure did do it and it seems to be the most common way.

JB


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1074 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: October 21, 2011 10:49AM

A couple of shots of my Ford E-brake setup.
Welded a small extension to the existing Ford E-brake cam to allow using original MG cable hardware. Works like a charm. Would be nice if Wilwood made an aluminum equivalent that had the integral e-brake.

E-brake1.jpg

E-brake2.jpg


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1968 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: mgb260
Date: October 21, 2011 12:31PM

Subaru uses the threaded piston like 99 percent of rear disc brakes(Mazda uses an allen bolt) for self adjusting. Sometimes the pistons corrode or stick. If you can't turn it with the special socket or needle nose pliers or channel locks on the back of the piston you have to put the caliper on the bench and disassemble and clean. I had the Subaru DL and had no problem screwing the piston back. I think the rubber boot helps protect it. I think it would be an excellent choice for rear brakes if you have large front brakes, as the later vented one uses the same thickness rotor as the popular thinner aftermarket rotor and hat. The earlier one uses a solid disc. Centric makes ceramic pads and Hawk HPS pads are also available. This picture shows the adjuster notches in the piston.
subaru dl.jpg



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2011 09:21PM by mgb260.



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5799 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 21, 2011 08:19PM

Maybe that Mazda design would bear looking into. My wife had a Mitsu Eclipse with that sort of a design and the one time I changed pads on it, it was a breeze to retract and install new pads. But I've never seen another caliper with that design. Jim, if you could find that Mazda caliper and post it here that could be a benefit to anyone wanting to upgrade their rear brakes.

JB


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1968 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: mgb260
Date: October 21, 2011 08:57PM

Jim, Here is an example 96 Mazda 626, solid rotor, small 31mm piston. 94-2005 Miata looks the same, 32mm piston.
96 Mazda 626.jpg
getimageCA0M94QH.jpg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2011 12:39AM by mgb260.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5799 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 21, 2011 10:35PM

As well as I can recall that looks like the Mitsu caliper I remember. Those would be good ones to keep in mind, as pad changes are dead easy, especially when compared to the other 99%. Pull the cover plug, insert allen wrench, retract piston, change pads. I don't think it can get any easier with an E-brake caliper.

JB


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1968 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: mgb260
Date: October 21, 2011 11:11PM

I looked up Mitsubishi too. My kid has an 93 Eclipse but it had the piston type adjuster. Maybe you had an odd one or someone put a Mazda caliper on.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5799 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Brake bias calculator link.
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 21, 2011 11:50PM

Yeah it was really strange. I don't remember the year but I could ask Edith. She bought it new. The odd thing was that I looked it up and the part for it was shown as the other type. I had even gone to the junkyard and pulled a set only to discover much later that they were the wrong ones. It was pretty much a base line Eclipse with the itty bitty motor, (1300, 1500 or something like that, whatever the smallest one was.) but had nice interior and ran good. She bought it for the looks and the interior I think. But it came with those calipers. Same ears sticking out to the sides and all. Really easy to change pads. I remember thinking at the time that if this was the new design there was hope for e-brake calipers after all.

JB
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