Steering, Suspension, & Brakes

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to non-driveline mechanical components

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jjohanski
James Johanski

(61 posts)

Registered:
11/15/2017 08:57AM

Main British Car:


Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: jjohanski
Date: June 25, 2019 09:34AM

Carl, I agree and think that having the assist at lower speeds and the automatic speed sensitive control to reduce or cancel the assist at higher speeds is the ideal solution. This is what the current technology in the newest cars does. The requirement with the Saturn based systems to adjust (via the Bruno controller) does this but it is not automatic. The Yaris based system does this automatically but requires a pulse generator to "wake" the system up upon starting. The new DCE system seems to do this. All comments are welcome. Anyone out there have experience with the DCE Microsteer system?


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6198 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 25, 2019 10:59AM

Be aware, the EPS will change the steering characteristics of the car whether it is on or off. What you have is a fairly large ring gear being driven by a worm gear on the assist motor. The worm and ring creates resistance. When unpowered that adds to the heavieness of the stock steering, and it reduces the snappy return-to-center that the OEM arrangement creates whether powered or not. Any reduction in camber or caster (particularly caster) will also reduce that effect, whereas wider tires will add to it.

So, adding EPS will reduce steering effort but also reduce return-to-center (which is a bit excessive in the stock MGB anyway). But without power it makes the steering a good bit heavier, as well as the reduction in return-to-center.

Jim


jjohanski
James Johanski

(61 posts)

Registered:
11/15/2017 08:57AM

Main British Car:


Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: jjohanski
Date: June 28, 2019 06:48AM

Jim, Well said and accurate!


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4268 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: July 01, 2019 01:10PM

I found this interesting:

The Miata has Mazdaís second implementation of rack-mounted electric power steering

The first application was in the RX-8, but while most modern Mazdas use electric power steering, itís really tricky to fit rack-mounted systems in front-wheel-drive cars. In the 2016 Mazda MX-5 Miata, a rack-mount assist system allowed engineers to improve steering feedback (other cars have the assist system in the column, which is less precise). Mazda did experiment with unassisted steering for the new Miata, but officials say the effort at parking speeds would have been too high.



jjohanski
James Johanski

(61 posts)

Registered:
11/15/2017 08:57AM

Main British Car:


Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: jjohanski
Date: July 08, 2019 04:46AM

Carl, Interesting comment. I have two modern cars--the older is a 2018 Chrysler 300 AWD with electric power steering on the rack as the Miata. The steering feel is good with a dampened return to center and almost no caster feel in the straight ahead position. This gives the car a light feel on the highway but the car does not wander. I suspect this feel is programed in. The second car is a slightly newer 2018 Ford Fusion Hybrid. This car has the has the electric power steering on the column and is virtually the same feel as the Chrysler. Again I suspect that is the programming. Both systems are speed sensitive.
This brings me to my present decision. I have decided to through some bucks at this and have purchased a DCE Microsteer system from Flaming River. The unit is in my hands and I plan this week to build some column and bracketry parts. I also hope to do some bench testing. This system goes both ways with a control much like the Bruno controller and an option for a pulse width speed input. I will be using the input from my GPS speedometer at 8000 pulses per mile. Unfortunately road testing will not be done until sometime this fall, when the progress of my V8 conversion is back on all fours. I will post information as available. As always comments are welcome.
BTW, I know that I had said that I did not think the EPAS was all that necessary, but it sure would be nice to have the low speed assist with the highway feel of the unassited MGB. Of course the highway experience will never be as "strong" as a non assisted MGB but if it is as good as either of my two modern cars, I will be quite pleased.
Comments and observations are always welcome.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4268 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: July 08, 2019 10:21AM

Look forward to your hands on observations, James.


b6281t
Robert Stolt
White Bear Lake,MN
(16 posts)

Registered:
03/01/2015 10:39AM

Main British Car:
77 MGB 2008 GM 3800 with T5

Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: b6281t
Date: August 01, 2019 10:16AM

IMG_0343-1.JPG
Over 4 years and 30.000 miles with the Vue power steering unit flipped upside down with no issues.



jjohanski
James Johanski

(61 posts)

Registered:
11/15/2017 08:57AM

Main British Car:


Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: jjohanski
Date: September 09, 2019 12:25PM

I just repeated reading of the recent posts. I was looking to see what the Roadmaster has in it for Power Steering. Did Jim Blackwell install a EPAS in the Roadmaster or was that in his own car? Will the Roadmaster be at the V8 GT in Townsend this year? Thanks to all.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4268 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: April 05, 2020 06:24PM

Since James joined us at the GT in Townsend, his question were answered. For those that were not, yes, the MG Roadmaster now has EPS (EPS column built by Mike Moor & installed by Jim Blackwood). And, no the MG Roadmaster was not there.

Jim has also installed EPS in his own MGB.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2020 11:29AM by MGBV8.


MG-Chuck
Chuck Schaefer

(4 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2020 11:55AM

Main British Car:


Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: MG-Chuck
Date: July 21, 2020 12:49PM

New member here today. I posted my implementation of a Prius EPS (EPAS) unit in my '69 MG project on The MG Experience. Carl Floyd suggested that I join this site and share it here.

The unit I chose was from a 2009 Toyota Prius. I needed to mate the MG steering column to the Prius. At the front end, I cut off the Priusís outer column and trimmed the inner tube extension to length. I removed the key steering lock sleeve and cut the MG inner to the required length. The 2 fit together well. I plug welded them in 2 places and then ran a bead around the joint for a belts an suspenders repair.

The lower section required a purchased Borgeson adapter that fit rather well. Then the sliding shaft was disassembled cut and welded together to get the required OAL as the MG OEM column. I did lose the collapsible feature in this implementation. I could have kept that function but would only have had an inch or two of collapse. I decided to make it simpler and ended up with a solid shaft.

The MG steering mount bracket needed to be relieved to make room for the drive assembly. That made it a bit flimsy. I added some reinforcement that cleared the drive. I addition I used that reinforcement to become the torque link for the motor. Also changed was the MG outer column mounting tabs.

The Prius unit (and many other Japanese cars) uses a limp-home mode if it's control box cannot communicate via the CAN link. The controller unit is required. The only external wiring necessary are Battery, Ground and ignition on.

To mount the controller, I ground off the original mounting tabs from the EPS control unit. The OEM mount fit 3 different crazy body locations that simply do not exist in the MGB. I was concerned that I may destroy the electronics internally with all the heat and electrical noise of the cutoff wheel on my angle grinder. I figured if it was designed properly, as I expect all major auto manufacturers do, it should be well protected from spurious noise on any unused inputs, so I moved forward with that plan. I fabricated an aluminum case to enclose the box and mount it to the vertical firewall virtually right next to the motor of the EPS unit. Added 4 rivet nuts to the firewall. The box now screws to the firewall with four 10-32 screws.

I tested the system in situ. Lo and behold, it still works as it should. No damage was done during my br@cketectomy procedure.

I wonít know for a few years yet how this will work out. I am doing the required mods while I finish up attacking the body repairs and V6/auto installation etc.

I hope this info helps others.
EPS Complete.jpg
EPS support 2.jpg
eps installed 4.jpg
eps installed 3.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2020 09:50AM by MGBV8.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6198 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: July 22, 2020 11:11AM

The collapsible column feature should be retained if possible, MGs have had a collapsible column since the Mark-II I believe.

Jim


MG-Chuck
Chuck Schaefer

(4 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2020 11:55AM

Main British Car:


Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: MG-Chuck
Date: July 22, 2020 10:35PM

I agree with you Jim. It should be kept, even if greatly reduced. The drive assembly did take up a lot of the space available for the collapse feature. Like I stated, I could have kept maybe 2 inches of collapse(ability?) had I had enough forward vision to do my cuts accordingly. I made a judgement call that I am OK with. I do not recommend others follow.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6198 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 30, 2022 03:16PM

OK here's a puzzle for you guys. On the last part of the trip back from BritishV8 in my '71 MGB roadster (300 Buick powered and equipped with a Prius/Corolla EPS) I noticed that the steering does not self center as it should. (I can't say how long it has been that way) I'm not saying it doesn't track down the center of the road if you take your hand off the wheel, what I'm saying is that if you take your hand off the wheel coming out of a moderately sharp curve it wants to keep turning instead of straightening out. It also doesn't find center while driving straight, tending to result in a zig-zag path. Now this is quite a surprise in an MGB which is justly famous for snapping back to center especially with wider tires, due to the largish caster angle of about 5 degrees, which causes noticeable suspension jacking when the wheels are turned sharply, and which if you take your hands off the wheel in a drift will very energetically whip back to center and I had the rug burn on my wrist to prove it.

For purposes of comparison I presently have the MGB-Roadmaster here in driveable condition, which is fitted with Mike Moor's EPS conversion that uses the Versa unit. By contrast, it isn't as snappy as the stock MGB but it does return to center nicely.

So far the web searches I've seen indicate that the Versa has more of an issue with return-to-center than the Prius unit does but this sure does not square with my current experience. I put the car up on the lift, checking for anything that might account for this and have yet to find anything. It's the same for both directions. The steering components all seem tight and functioning properly. There doesn't seem to be any binding. With the key off I can grab the tire or brake rotor and push the steering from lock to lock with about the usual resistance, probably just a bit more due to the EPS gearbox.

Anyone have any idea what else I could look at here? I'm sorta drawing a blank. About the only thing I can point to might be wheel offset.

Jim


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4268 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 30, 2022 05:14PM

Wheel offset? Has that changed much since you installed the EPS?

I have found many instances of complaints very similar to yours on the Toyota/Yaris/Prius EPS. Lots steering & alignments checks a dealers that say everything is fine & normal. Not much resolution.

Except for this one:

"Well I got my steering problem sorted out. The first thing I did was to get the odd thread tire on the front changed so that the tyres had the same profile, I then got the four wheels laser tracked and the report showed that the toe in was out. The result of all this was that the steering was marginally better but not right. My mechanic mate then sourced a second hand steering motor and ECU, he fitted the steering motor at first and recalibrated the steering etc and this also improved the steering vastly but it still wasn't right. He then fitted the ECU and on reclibrating etc solved the problem entirely."

Another observation:

"I think this is simply the difference between Toyota and VW's power steering calibrations that you're seeing - VW's electric power steering systems have a very aggressive return to center (to the point that they'll hold what they think center is, even with things like crowned roads and IIRC even crosswinds), where Toyota's systems tend to be a little "sticky" near center to try to get a similar effect - it'll stay where you put it if you're near the center."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2022 05:21PM by MGBV8.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4268 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 30, 2022 05:19PM

Another great link I ran across with pics comparing Corolla, Prius, Yaris, Saturn Vue, Nissan Cube & Versa, & Kia Soul EPS.

Prius ECU may work on Saturn Vue (same torque sensor) for fail safe use?

[www.therangerstation.com]



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6198 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 30, 2022 10:24PM

Are you saying that the VW unit is the same as the Prius except for the programming?

I do not care for that 'sticky' characteristic at all. Probably should look at what the Mazdas are using.

After I re-seal the valve covers on the Roadmaster tomorrow I want to do a back-to-back comparison, that might be helpful. As for the wheel offset, yes I have been playing with that a bit and I also should be able to swap the tires front to rear and see what the effect is. One set has a 24mm offset and I believe the other is 10mm so that should be enough to make a difference. The 10's would be the ones I have on the front now. Apparently the offset of the Jag rims on the RM (Hollander 59689) is 33mm.

Jim


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4268 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: July 01, 2022 09:26AM

No. The article in the link shows a pic saying the the torque sensor from Prius is the same as a Saturn Vue. So, a Prius ECU could be used in fail safe mode on a Saturn Vue EPS. Lots of info in that link.

My old OEM 5" wide Rostyles have a 24mm offset, My 6" ARE wheels have a 13mm offset. My tires are not nearly as wide as yours, though. The wide tires may be accentuating a minor issue?


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6198 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: July 01, 2022 11:20AM

I'll get it back on the lift this afternoon, I have an infrequent ugly klunking at the right front that I have to find. (Nothing seems loose so some dissassembly is in order. Bearings maybe.) I might try swapping the tires around to see what that does. Assuming the klunk isn't causing it somehow.

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6198 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: July 01, 2022 04:12PM

Well that wasn't it. Swapped tires, steering is still sticky in the middle. I don't much care for it.

(Tightened the shock base bolts, one was moving just a smidge)

Drove the RM again, it's got a little of that sticky too but not as bad. Reports are good on the Mazda 3 steering, maybe we should be taking a look at that one. I think a junkyard trip may be in my future.

Jim


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2221 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Electric Power Steering
Posted by: mgb260
Date: July 02, 2022 01:10AM

Jim, 2014 and newer Mazda 3 had electric power steering.

[www.drive.com.au]
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