Steering, Suspension, & Brakes

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to non-driveline mechanical components

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Robert J
Robert Janca
Oakland, CA
(53 posts)

Registered:
10/21/2011 06:31PM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB Ford 331 Stroker

Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: Robert J
Date: February 11, 2012 10:29PM

Although this is not officially a Panhard bar by design as it does not match Panhards original eclecticism.
[bringatrailer.com]

This is an interesting and fairly easy way to reduce spring twist on an MGB. Pictures from my new car's underside:
79mgbv8 panard bar a.jpg
panard bar a1.jpg
panard bar b.jpg


chimes
david chimes
Reading, UK
(12 posts)

Registered:
12/13/2009 08:40AM

Main British Car:
JaguarXJ8 & XK8 Original GT V8 (just s 2ltr

Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: chimes
Date: February 12, 2012 06:16AM

Not near a panhard rod, it's a tramp bar! Won't stop lateral movement one jot!


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3782 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: February 12, 2012 09:57AM

David's right. We call 'em traction bars (or slapper bars).


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 12, 2012 12:01PM

A reasonable mistake for someone not familiar with this technology. The slapper bar is a traction device designed to prevent spring wind up and uses the counter torque of the axle housing to plant the tires on acceleration by applying a jacking force to the body. Useful in straight line acceleration but not helpful coming out of a turn. It helps to think in terms of the forces one is trying to counteract.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2012 12:02PM by BlownMGB-V8.


Robert J
Robert Janca
Oakland, CA
(53 posts)

Registered:
10/21/2011 06:31PM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB Ford 331 Stroker

Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: Robert J
Date: February 13, 2012 11:59AM

Thank you for the input. So, what is the best available true panhard bar for the MGB project I am presently building?


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3782 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: February 13, 2012 06:19PM

Are you looking for one that will just bolt in? Or, are you looking for DIY suggestions?


Robert J
Robert Janca
Oakland, CA
(53 posts)

Registered:
10/21/2011 06:31PM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB Ford 331 Stroker

Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: Robert J
Date: February 14, 2012 12:37AM

I would prefer to fabricate it myself. I'm a competent welder and have a small shop full of useful tools. Is there a tech posted here somewhere?



ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1084 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: February 14, 2012 09:31AM

You might get some good pointers from this archived thread...
[forum.britishv8.org]


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3782 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: February 14, 2012 09:38AM

Robert,

Way back in the early days of the "MG V8 Newsletter" there was a very good how-to article. I don't think it was ever digitized here. A lot of us fabbed our own using ideas from it. The general consensus is to make the bar as long as possible, level with the ground, & even (or below) with the axle centerline. Lots of pics here to gather design ideas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2012 09:39AM by MGBV8.


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1084 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: February 14, 2012 10:38AM

A couple more from the archives:
[www.britishv8.org]
[www.britishv8.org]


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3005 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Easy "Panard Bar" has "arc"
Posted by: roverman
Date: February 14, 2012 11:54AM

If your running real close tire to fender side clearance, consider the "arc" lateral movement of the rear end, as it travels up/down. Watts links, Jacobs ladders and Pickle forks, all used for controlling lateral location, do Not have "ark" traverse. Good Luck, roverman.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: Moderator
Date: February 14, 2012 11:57AM

These two articles show particularly good installations, although quite elaborate:
[www.britishv8.org]
[www.britishracecar.com]


Bill Young
Bill Young
Kansas City, MO
(1337 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:23AM

Main British Car:
'73 MG Midget V6 , '59 MGA I6 2.8 GM, 4.0 Jeep

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: Bill Young
Date: February 14, 2012 03:23PM

There are other options that you may want to look into such as the "Jacobs Ladder" or a Watts Linkage to control side to side movement of the rear axle. [www.spitzracing.com] or [en.wikipedia.org]


Robert J
Robert Janca
Oakland, CA
(53 posts)

Registered:
10/21/2011 06:31PM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB Ford 331 Stroker

Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: Robert J
Date: February 14, 2012 04:59PM

OK, thank you all for the links.

This is going to keep me busy cogitating and measuring for a while.
:)


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3005 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: roverman
Date: February 14, 2012 06:56PM

Thanks for the "links" Bill. As we can see, either of these systems should provide a smoother ride and ehanced handling, with leaf springs, vs a panhard bar. It's easy to change rear roll center height with Watts linkage by having multile threaded holes (vertically), to mount central pivot point. This is also available feature for "pickle forks". Just say NO to lateral arc. roverman.



Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: Moderator
Date: February 14, 2012 08:17PM

Quote:
Just say NO to lateral arc.

Art, the arc you're talking about is a function of Panhard bar length. The formula for calculating its size is given in the second article Graham linked to (above). With a 36" long Panhard rod, the arc effect results in a maximum lateral movement of only 1/8". (It would be a bigger lateral movement on an off-road vehicle, but MGBs just don't have that much wheel travel!) If an eighth inch is too much to suit you, you can make the Panhard rod even longer. So long as you don't make it shorter, the Panhard rod's effect on ride quality will be trivial. Watts links or great... but a Panhard rod will be cheaper to make and easier to install than any Watts link. If you want to play with roll center height, a Panhard rod makes that quicker and easier too.


Bill Young
Bill Young
Kansas City, MO
(1337 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:23AM

Main British Car:
'73 MG Midget V6 , '59 MGA I6 2.8 GM, 4.0 Jeep

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: Bill Young
Date: February 15, 2012 08:48AM

I agree about the cost to build a panhard bar versus a watts linkage as I don't know of any pre made watts linkages on the market, but you can buy a Jacobs Ladder very inexpensively from such places as Speedway Motors. Still have fabrication work to do for the mounts, but you have almost the same with a panhard bar. I see it as a good option. The only downside for any of these is to get the best roll center and such the lowest mounting point needs to be pretty low and that might restrict ground clearance on a street car.


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3005 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Easy "Panard Bar", how much longer ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: February 15, 2012 12:20PM

What I got from the ,"Jacobs Ladder vs Panhard Bar", is an 87" long panhard bar would generate approximately .100" of arc in 4" of vertical travel ? Is this more travel than a street use British sports car would use ? roverman.


MGB-FV8
Jacques Mathieu
Alexandria, VA
(299 posts)

Registered:
09/11/2009 08:55PM

Main British Car:
1977 MGB Small Block Ford, 331 Stroker

Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: MGB-FV8
Date: February 15, 2012 01:40PM

I have a Watts linkage system; it's a little different but it came with my pinion mounted parking brake. I was trying to reduce the rotating mass mostly to increase MPG (and HP) but my main concern was the composite spring that I had purchased from Doug Jackson. There were some reports of spring shredding under high-torque. Doug Jackson which is now retired defended his product saying that the ones complaining refused to use tramp bars. Jim Stuart has this system with tramp bars for the past 8-10 years in his GT with the Buick 300 and has had no problems. I'm running a 331 FSB stroker, which, will test the springs to its limits.

I originally went with his system as no link bar system were available at the time. However, after I've called a couple of composite spring manufacturers, I understood the advantages of the composite springs mostly being the lightness and the fact that they react 8 times faster than steel springs.

I'm struggling every year to finish the project and I was thinking about replacing my DJ tramp bars with the "Slide-A-Link" tramp bars; the problem is that I would have to fabricate new front spring eyes with an extended area for the rollers to ride on (if you know what I mean). Again, the reason for switching to this type of bars is to free up spring extension for a better ride; as it stands now, only the back half of the spring extends with the swing of the shackles.

I'll attach a previous post that I had started depicting my concerns, it has nice photos. Take a look at the "Watts" linkage, the manufacturer assured me that they work great with narrow frame rails. The other photo with a top link is not mine; I was just questioning its usefulness.

[forum.britishv8.org]

Please, let me know your thoughts; some of you have great engineering minds and I could use the help.

Cheers,


Bill Young
Bill Young
Kansas City, MO
(1337 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:23AM

Main British Car:
'73 MG Midget V6 , '59 MGA I6 2.8 GM, 4.0 Jeep

authors avatar
Re: Easy "Panard Bar"
Posted by: Bill Young
Date: February 15, 2012 04:28PM

Art, the point is that the panhard rod would have to be 87" long to equal the movement of the jacobs ladder, now I don't know of any sports car that's 87" wide so you wind up with most panhard rods being in the range of around 40" or so to fit between the springs in the rear. Not optimum length to minimize side to side movement. Would it be too much, not really, way too many of us running short panhard rods without problems. Just wanted Robert to know that there were alternatives that actually worked better and had less influence on the roll center.
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