Steering, Suspension, & Brakes

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to non-driveline mechanical components

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J Man
jason adkins
NW OH
(202 posts)

Registered:
01/21/2009 08:49PM

Main British Car:
'61 Morris Minor panel, '70 MGB GT, '74 MGB GT MGB 1.8, unsure yet on the GTs

Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: J Man
Date: December 25, 2012 06:52PM

I found someone selling a set of these. What would their purpose be? Advantages to running them? Would they cause wheel fitment issues? Thanks


Jim Stabe
Jim Stabe
San Diego, Ca
(757 posts)

Registered:
02/28/2009 10:01AM

Main British Car:
1966 MGB Roadster 350 LT1 Chevy

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: Jim Stabe
Date: December 26, 2012 10:17AM

What do they fit? Post a picture


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5919 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: December 26, 2012 12:10PM

Might be helpful if you cut the springs to lower the car.

Jim


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2049 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: mgb260
Date: December 26, 2012 12:58PM

They are about 1/8" longer than stock MGB lower arms and give about 2 degrees negative camber. Front tires will wear a little more inside. Help cornering a little.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4465 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: Moderator
Date: December 26, 2012 01:24PM

Moss has sold these for MGB for as long as I can remember.

For the MGB, they look exactly like regular lower control arms - just slightly longer. (We're talking about just the two c-channels which bolt to either side of the spring pan. The spring pan doesn't change.)

Yes, they alter cornering (for the better) but they also effect braking (slightly for the worse, at least in a straight line.)

What do they do exactly? In simplified terms... as the car's body tilts sideways while negotiating a turn, and as weight load shifts from the inside front tire's contact patch to the outside front tire, and as the outside suspension compresses, and as a function of the unequal length and non-parallel arrangement of upper versus lower control arms, the wheels and tires lean over a little bit. That's called "camber change." These arms change the starting point for that camber change behavior, and subsequently the ending point. Again, in very simplified terms... you'd like the outside tire to be perfectly perpendicular to the road at all times. That's not feasible. This product might help your tires achieve perpendicularity in hard turns.


J Man
jason adkins
NW OH
(202 posts)

Registered:
01/21/2009 08:49PM

Main British Car:
'61 Morris Minor panel, '70 MGB GT, '74 MGB GT MGB 1.8, unsure yet on the GTs

Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: J Man
Date: December 26, 2012 08:23PM

I guess I forgot to mention what vehicle these were for but you guys figured it out.

Would these be good for a daily street driven vehicle (or even needed) or more suited for a race application?


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3918 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: December 29, 2012 09:51AM

They are totally unnecessary (some would say undesirable) for a daily driver.

Disclaimer: I still run the stock lower A-arms on my street/autocross/track day MG. It seems to holds its own just fine without the additional negative camber.



ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1104 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: December 29, 2012 10:06PM

Quote:
They are totally unnecessary...

I dunno, Carl....the NASCAR boys take camber to the max.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4465 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: Moderator
Date: December 29, 2012 11:33PM

In racecar set-up, one lap-time reduction strategy is to maximize exit speed from whatever corner comes immediately before the longest straight. How tight is that corner? How much banking? A racer might add or reduce static camber compared to the previous weekend's set-up to optimize that one corner's exit speed thus providing faster speed all the way down the main straight.

If the banking is different at Daytona than it is at Martinsville, for example, it makes sense that NASCAR boys probably adjust camber accordingly.

One screwy up thing about MGBs is that swapping control arms is a gross adjustment. I wish someone would offer stock-length control arms except with a nifty adjustment cam mechanism at one end to facilitate fine tuning. (But maybe the adjustment should be made at the upper end. No?)

Here's the important point: a racecar can't be optimized for every corner on a road racing circuit, and a car certainly can't be optimized for every corner on real world roads. You have to choose a compromise setting. (I use stock lower control arms.)


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3918 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: December 30, 2012 11:44AM

Now Graham, somewhere in that sentence I did say daily driver.
Quote:
I wish someone would offer stock-length control arms except with a nifty adjustment cam mechanism at one end to facilitate fine tuning.

Bill Guzman used to sell something like that.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5919 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: December 31, 2012 11:09AM

So, maybe it would be helpful for something like a car that had been lowered by using shorter springs?

Jim


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4465 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: Moderator
Date: December 31, 2012 12:55PM

Helpful in what way?

The main negative side effect of lowering a car by fitting shorter or shortened springs is that it typically shifts the operating range of the suspension from a zone of relatively little bump steer into one where bump steer is more pronounced. Camber shouldn't significantly effect bump steer.

Why do alignment shops check and adjust camber on other cars besides MGB? My perception is that suspensions and frames tend to get tweaked on potholes and/or in minor accidents. I suspect a more fully adjustable suspension might be brought back to factory spec with fewer replaced parts.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5919 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 01, 2013 12:58PM

I was thinking that the camber change at static ride height might be brought back closer to spec that way. Since the bottom pulls in under compression a longer arm would move it back out. But it might be too much.

Anyway, drop spindles would be a better way to lower the car.

Jim


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3035 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 02, 2013 12:21PM

I suspect a lot of oem designs have "some" degree of bump steer, much like different akerman amounts. Perhaps a good place to start is minimizing the bump steer ? Why not run air bags ? You get static ride height where you want it ,and tunable rising, spring rates. Seems like moving the uca, inner pivots, up/down should help in fine tuning the camber curve ? Chees, roverman.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5919 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 02, 2013 05:21PM

About four of us have tried air bags with varying success in the MGB. The biggest problem is finding a 4" diameter bag which nobody seems to make. The 4-1/2" ones are a little tight and may chafe.

Jim



roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3035 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Negative camber lower control arms, bags ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 03, 2013 09:08PM

Jim and clan, might want to peep, "AirBaggit.com". At least 2 lengths of 4" dia. bags,(double and triple convolute), rated at 1k lbs. ea. At least 2 kinds of 4" dia air shocks rated at 1k lbs ea. Not an endorsement. I bought my "Healey" bags/etc., from them. Good Luck, roverman.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5919 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 04, 2013 09:48AM

I know it says 4" on the description but they really are closer to 4-1/2. With those bags it takes a fair amount of work and even more good luck to get adequate clearance we've found. If they were just 1/4" smaller it would be ideal.

Jim


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3035 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Negative camber lower control arms, bags ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 04, 2013 01:38PM

Clan, First bag listed, on their site #800, 3.5" dia. 150 max psi, 1,500 lbs/axle, 6"-10" height, cost $39. ea. Onward, roverman.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5919 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 04, 2013 03:39PM

Haven't looked at that one, almost certain to be too long. Might buy one or two and try them. I already have too many "spares" lying around, it's somebody else's turn.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2013 03:49PM by BlownMGB-V8.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3918 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Negative camber lower control arms
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 04, 2013 08:29PM

Bump steer? I think too much is made of the little bit of bump steer caused by lowering an MGB with shorter springs.
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