Bodywork, Paint, Interior, Trim, & Wiring

discussions about bodywork, paint, interiors, trim, audio, electrical components, wiring, etc.

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Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4466 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
cable type window regulators
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 03, 2014 03:41PM

I'm thinking about fitting something like this: [www.summitracing.com]

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/RNB-740-748_BW_ml.jpg
(photo courtesy of Summit Racing)

I'm thinking these might be lighter weight than original, they'll let me relocate my window cranks easily (important on my car because my passenger-side crank is too close to a roll cage tube), they might open the door to some nice crank options, and they might even wind the window up smoother.

Do you have any experience with fitting cable type regulators? Tips? Opinions?


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3035 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: roverman
Date: May 08, 2014 05:41PM

I sure like the concept-but, they're listed for Mazda. How much stroke ? Curvature ? Power available ? Should save weight. How heavy of a glass, will they support ? Cheers, roverman.


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: May 08, 2014 11:22PM

If that's a Mazda part, then the ZOOM ZOOM factor alone makes it worthwhile.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4466 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 09, 2014 02:28AM

I ended up ordering a VW Jetta window regulator to try out. Based on photos, I decided I prefer the styling of VW style window cranks over Mazda cranks. They seem more robust too: they have rubbery plastic covers over cast metal levers, and hidden machine screws to attach the cranks to the regulators instead of spring clips. $26 for a brand new aftermarket (Dorman brand) regulator, plus about ten bucks for a pair of cranks. I'll report back when I receive parts and can inspect them. In the meantime, I took my passenger-side door panel off and removed the old window glass and regulator. Decided that it's the glass that's really overweight, but I haven't yet talked myself into polycarbonate.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5920 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: May 09, 2014 10:37AM

Curtis, there does exist an armored polycarbonate. I don't know how good it is but it supposedly has a coating that resists scratches. Possibly a version of what they use on the armored cars and such. Undoubtedly expensive and hard to find in the thickness needed for window glass, but let us all know if you run across a source.

Jim


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2049 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: mgb260
Date: May 09, 2014 12:50PM

Lexan as used in race cars?


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4466 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 09, 2014 03:17PM

"Lexan" and "Makrolon" are two of the brand names for clear polycarbonate. A less durable and less costly option would be clear acrylic, which has been marketed as "Plexiglas" or "Perspex". I used polycarbonate ~23 years ago for the side windows on my GT (behind the doors), and it's holding up just fine. On one side, some sort of chemical cleaning agent caused a bit of hazing, but they've resisted scratches well. Door windows are a tougher application, since they have to slide against rubber seals. Makrolon is available with an abrasion resistant coating. The problems are: (1) "Makrolon AR" is horribly expensive, (2) I haven't found it for sale in small pieces (I don't need a 4'x8' sheet!), and (3) I haven't been able to determine whether "Makrolon AR" can be heated up and molded to a curved shape. (Would the "AR" be damaged by heat?) Their website also mentions a product called "Makrolon TX" which supposedly is made specifically for use on car skylights. Apparently, they think the skylights of 18-wheeler sleeper cabs are a good market for Makrolon TX because those are the vehicles shown on their website.

===========

The Jetta window regulator arrived today but I'm still waiting for cranks. Here are some preliminary snapshots.

1-overview.jpg
(The main column is way too long, but I expected that. The cable - core and both pieces of sheathing - will need to be shortened too.)

2-winder.jpg
(This part worries me most. Either I need to space this way into the door, or I need to shorten the splined shaft. Not fun.)

3-top-roller.jpg
(This section might be hard to modify, so instead I expect the column will have to be shortened at the bottom end.)

4-bottom-roller.jpg
(Just cut the steel column and remount the rest higher, right?)



Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4466 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 09, 2014 03:24PM

5-window-mtg-plate.jpg
(This attaches to the glass, somehow.)

6-cable-connection-to-plate.jpg
(The cable is crimped and secured behind the window mounting plate. Of course it will need to be shortened and re-attached.)

Is this a stupid make-work project, or what? Might be a good learning experience, I guess...


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2049 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: mgb260
Date: May 09, 2014 04:38PM

Curtis, another idea on the splined stub, you can shorten and weld a nut to use MGB handles. On the long channel just section out the middle.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5920 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: May 09, 2014 09:43PM

Perspex or Plexiglas is not a very good choice for auto windows because it can break, leaving sharp edges. But on the plus side, the body (or at least the eyes) do not reject it as a foreign material, making it a good choice for intra-optic lenses after cataract surgery. (Little known facts you were just dying to hear, right?) Polycarbonate OTOH can be bent double and squeezed in a vise without cracking. The trick to forming polycarbonate is to dry it thoroughly in an oven at about 150 degrees for at least an hour or more before warming it to the point where it will take the shape of the form it is lying on (the old window glass). You'd have to check the specs to see what this temp is, might be somewhere around 250-300F. Try a test piece first. If the drying step is not thorough enough you get bubbles. It's doubtful the hard coating would be harmed by this process but again, the test piece should tell you.

I think there are at least 2 (and probably several more) levels or types of hard coatings. One I have heard of is reputed to approach silicon (glass) in scratch resistance but I have no personal experience with it.

You might try to work up a group buy to use up that 4x8 sheet. Find the best coating and give us the price. Figuring out the best layout to get the most out of it should not be difficult (remember GT windows are larger than RD) and the scraps are worth something too. We could just split up the cost of the sheet, and any sheet metal shear should cut it. The main issue then would be to pack the pieces in a way that they aren't likely to be poked and dented in shipping.

The oven can be as simple as a large cardboard box over a pair of sawhorses with a space heater below it or something similar. Cardboard will discolor at 300F but ordinarily should not burn. You'd want to take some precautions of course.

I'd suggest requesting samples to evaluate the coating and the forming properties.

Jim


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4466 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 13, 2014 05:04PM

Well, I sectioned the column to remove six inches out of the middle (making it ~14.75" long, tip to tip). I also de-arched it a bit to match the curvature of the MGB window. Things seemed promising until I trial-fitted the column/plate assembly in the door. It's just too thick at the top end. I don't see a good way to modify the window mounting plate so it runs closer to the column. It will be hard to modify at all, since the nylon bits are molded right onto the steel part. One could make an entirely new, low-profile mounting plate from scratch but to be as good as the VW one would require some custom nylon wear surfaces. Too much work. I'm skeptical that a different off-the-shelf cable type regulator would be enough thinner, so I'll put the stock MGB regulator back in and re-focus on my door trim project for now. Bummer.

Fitting polycarbonate windows sounds like a good project, but they can be done on their own schedule.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2049 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: mgb260
Date: May 13, 2014 05:21PM

Curtis, How about if the top piece was lower?


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4466 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 14, 2014 03:40PM

Well... this snapshot shows my shortened column.
7-sectioned-column.jpg

For the photo, I positioned it at my intended mounting height and also at a workable fore/aft position. Obviously, it would actually be installed outboard (i.e. inside the door cavity) - and the column itself can just barely fit there with clearance to the window glass - but I couldn't see how to get that sliding plate (currently sitting about half way up the column) to work. To be functional, it needs to lift the window 13.75" from fully-open to fully-closed position. At the elevation of the pulley, there's only about an inch of space between the door's inner panel and window glass. Tight!

If weight and cost weren't issues, this would be an attractive option: [www.mossmotors.com]


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2049 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: mgb260
Date: May 14, 2014 04:10PM

Curtis, How about spacers at mounts to move channel out as far as possible towards outside of door. Then adapter from window channel to oval holes in sliding piece.
Cheaper, lighter alternatives:
[www.google.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2014 05:08PM by mgb260.


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: May 14, 2014 07:40PM

Hey Curtis,
your B doesn't require the extra weight or complexity of the center channel.
So get rid of it.
Mount pulleys at the top and bottom of the inner door panel and make a small bracket to attach the cable to the old window reg. track.
If the window is unstable, a center track can be formed easily.
I use 3/8 tubing bent to conform to the front window track. Small tabs attach it to the door. And an "L" bracket from the window with an appropriate hole and grommet slide over the tube to support the window.
For pulley's I use Patio door repair kits. The little wheels are perfect and have a ball bearing to boot.
I've never done a manual crank version of this but that cable mechanism should be a snap to hook up.
The whole thing is light and simple.

Cheers
Fred



Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4466 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 14, 2014 08:51PM

I like the centerless concept, but even without the central column I still imagine it'll be fussy to get worked out.

Here, through the miracle of PhotoShop, I present an alternative weight reduction and simplification concept:

(Before View)
Before.jpg

(After View)
After.jpg

I got this idea from my earlier Google searches... Mazda used a single-arm regulator like this on their early 1980s pickup truck models. (Reference.)

Think it will work on an MGB GT? What are the disadvantages?

See, here's the thing: I really want the crank to move about 5/8" rearward on my passenger-side door to eliminate an interference issue with my rollcage. The beauty of this latest proposal is that I only have to shift one set of mounting holes rearward. I can leave the driver-side door unmolested, and I can keep on using my same old window cranks.


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: May 14, 2014 10:30PM

If all you want to do is move the crank position.
Then why not just pivot the gearbox rearward using the centerline of the big (ring?) gear as the pivot point?
Essentially just re-clock the gear box.
It retains all the stock function and hardware without introducing new variables into the equation.
It's simple and it's free.
BTW is that a composite deck?
I want to redo mine @ Baker and the choices are driving me mental.


mgbreis
Ryan Reis
Beatrice, NE
(203 posts)

Registered:
07/16/2008 11:07AM

Main British Car:


Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: mgbreis
Date: May 14, 2014 10:42PM

I remember years ago seeing how Gary used Toyota regulators, thought it was great because mine are so stiff and hard to wind up. Probably not what you're looking for though. [www.rc-tech.net] (click on "toyota window regulators" on the left side)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2014 10:43PM by mgbreis.


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: May 15, 2014 12:28PM

Hey Ryan,
If you look at your regulator where the shaft comes out for the handle. You'll see a small top hat like protrusion around the shaft.
That contains a mechanical "clutch" mechanism that stops the window from unwinding on it's own. Over time they corrode and dry out, making the window very hard to use. Just shoot some oil in it and you'll be amazed at how well it works. You may have to drill a small hole in the side facing the shaft for adequate access.

Cheers
Fred


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4466 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: cable type window regulators
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 15, 2014 12:44PM

quote: "why not just pivot the gearbox rearward"

Good idea! I just need to verify whether there are enough extra gear teeth around the big ring first. (If i run out of teeth, the window won't go all the way up, right?)

quote: "BTW, is that a composite deck?"

It's the deck of my 5x8 utility trailer, and the "boards" were made from recycled tires. Perfect for a trailer, but they get quite hot (and sag) when the sun shines on them. Still, they're ten years old and as good as new, with no maintenance.
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