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roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3006 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

TA head in SCCA ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: May 17, 2011 05:22PM

Use it in GT1 and GT2 ? Other racing classes ?


Phillip G
Phillip Leonard
Kansas City
(395 posts)

Registered:
02/03/2008 04:12PM

Main British Car:
1992 MG RV8 Rover 3.5

Re: TA head in SCCA ?
Posted by: Phillip G
Date: May 17, 2011 07:39PM

Art,

I'll get you a set of the rules for the SCCA GT1 & GT2 class on all modifications allowed as of the 2011 GCR. It is available on line so I'm told, but I haven't found it. I'm still waiting for my spiral bound hard copy in the mail - so I still follow the 2010 version of the GCR.

r'grds,

phillip g


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: TA head in SCCA ?
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: May 17, 2011 09:10PM

They are available on line.
Got mine on the SCCA website.
It's a 700 page pdf so load up the printer.

Cheers
Fred


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: TA head in SCCA ?
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 17, 2011 09:45PM

I didn't have any problem finding the 2011 rule book on SCCA's website. In fact, you can download the 2011 rule book in five different versions: January 2011 through May 2011. They're all on this page:
2011 SCCA Club Racing General Competition Rules and Regulations

The problem is - as far as I can tell - SCCA keeps updating the rulebook without adding the MG RV8 or the MG MGB GT V8 model to the GT2 specifications chart that spans pages 330-347.

Just for reference and comparison, notice that the Sunbeam Tiger is listed on page 345 of that chart and that it gets two lines because two different engines were fitted in Tigers in period. (Most Tigers got 266cid Ford V8 engines, but some later Tigers got 289cid engines.) In the "Notes" column you can read what the chart says about allowed cylinder heads:
Quote:
Cylinder Heads: Any Ford 260, 289, or 302 Wind- sor V-8 cast-iron production cylinder head, delivered on U.S. model cars or trucks, and bearing unmodified factory casting numbers beginning in C, D, E, or F are allowed. Competitor shall be able to provide documentation from the manufacturer identifying application(s), displacement, engine family, and casting identification. Ford Motorsport engine blocks (P/N M-6010-A50 & M-6010-B50) are allowed.

Now obviously, the Ford engines have a huge advantage over the Rover engines - greater displacement! As we understand the SCCA rules from Phil's earlier posts on this forum, RV8 is being restricted to 215cid EVEN THOUGH THAT'S OVER FIFTEEN PERCENT SMALLER THAN STOCK!

SCCA has been having as hard a time as any sanctioning organization filling its grids. I should think SCCA might look favorably on a rule change petition that tried to level the playing field just a little. I don't personally have standing in this case, but if I had an RV8 I believe I'd petition for MG RV8 to be allowed the original/stock 3.9: displacement.

Furthermore, I'd petition for both RV8 and MGB GT V8 to be able to run without restrictor plates! If SCCA would eliminate the restrictor plate rule, "vintage racers" like Les Gonda and Jerry Richards could probably enter GT2 races.

If someone wants to petition SCCA about aftermarket Rover heads... why not? (Someone obviously managed to get Ford Motorsport engine blocks allowed for Tigers.)

Hmmm... these guys in GT2? Why not!
http://www.britishracecar.com/p-MGB-GT-V8-Race-Cars


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3006 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: TA head in SCCA ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: May 19, 2011 12:18PM

Curtis and clan, IR. induction in GT 2, not likely but 4.L would help. Group 44 ran IR-injected, TR8 in GT1. These MGB GT's will have a tuff time making "Phillips" min. weight. How bout lil' more weight, 4L and NO restrictor ? Let's stir-it-up in GT2! Cheers, roverman.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: TA head in SCCA ?
Posted by: Moderator
Date: May 19, 2011 02:27PM

Les ran a 4bbl carb for years. Jerry and Storm still run 4bbl Holley carbs. I think they both run 450cfm Holleys instead of the 390cfm Holley that SCCA inexplicably mandates for the Tiger, so perhaps meeting a similarly arbitrary and capricious rule may be a little inconvenient. Late breaking news: the new owner of Keith's car (i.e. the blue one, above) raced about two weekends ago at Road America. As far as I know, no 4bbl carb was included in the sale, but fitting one in lieu of the four Webers couldn't take all that much work.

I'm still scratching my head and trying to figure out why GT2 seems so much more restrictive than the eastern U.S.'s biggest vintage racing organization. That's just plain weird. Seriously, it's not like any MG is going to sweep in and upset the modern cars in major National races - it's really just a matter of opening the class up so more people can have fun at the Regional level.

I went to an SCCA Regional at Heartland Park, there were only two GT2 cars entered and neither of them finished the race. I went to an SCCA Regional at High Plains Raceway, there wasn't a single GT car entered... If SCCA can't figure out how to fill some grids they might as well just turn off the lights and leave what they're currently doing to the Miata car club to continue with. (Sorry... a little venting there.)

Here's what I know about the weight of Les' car:
Quote:
the minimum allowed weight for Les's car is established by (SVRA) class rules... 1975#, plus an adjustment/penalty of 50# for the non-standard transmission and an adjustment/penalty of 25# for not using an alternator. In current trim, Les's car weighs 2120#.

Art, I'm not sure what you meant about weight... do you think SCCA would allow a significantly lighter car than Les Gonda's in GT2? Looking through the published version of the GTCS, it seems his 2120# is pretty close to average.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 02:33PM by Moderator.


WedgeWorks1
Mike Perkins
Ellicott City, Maryland
(460 posts)

Registered:
07/06/2008 08:07AM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5 Litre Rover V8

authors avatar
Re: TA head in SCCA ?
Posted by: WedgeWorks1
Date: May 19, 2011 09:09PM

This is just another example of how the Rover V8 and as previously mentioned TR8s gets hammered for smart design and production. The TR8 ran its class back in 1979 under a very watchful eye for every SCCA event and well when it appears to be better engineering and cleary out of the box a superior car it is short lived. Right now the Group 44 cars would be allowed to run but no points. They would not be allow the Piersberg intake and from there add 800lbs of ballast plus make then have an emergency brake that would have to be partially on! I know Ken Slagle ran Production and GT with his car and it reached a point to where the SCCA rule changes each year after the TR8 went out of production he was getting penalized to being noncompetitive. When I read the GCR and GT class rules and seen the requirements for a restricter plate that and having a "production" requirement for a model year I really was disappointed and thats how my TR8 went the Rally route. I would love to build a GT TR8 but at this point with SCCA thats out and I dont have the check book for HSR. I hope this forum and the guys building MGB/R V8s and hopefully someday TR8s can change SCCA's minds and be open and fair and let some fun back into the organization. Let the car be what they are and not what everyone else's car.



Phillip G
Phillip Leonard
Kansas City
(395 posts)

Registered:
02/03/2008 04:12PM

Main British Car:
1992 MG RV8 Rover 3.5

Re: TA head in SCCA ?
Posted by: Phillip G
Date: May 25, 2011 12:52AM

British V8 "official" SCCA racing fans.

In the 2011 SCCA GCR (General Competition Rules) for the "GT2 Cars - BLMI", find the "MGB GT V8 & Rover RV8" in the sanctioned GT2 class.

After my first entry into a SCCA race with my MG RV8, I discovered that even the fine print in the GCR must be pointed out to the scrutineering/tech inspection staff (all competent volunteers), because they have hundreds of various manufacturers in, literally, hundreds of legally/eligible models, to consider for acceptability and acceptance into the "official" SCCA (printed out in hard copy) practice sessions/laptimes results and "official" starting grid results based upon practice lap times. The results of the "official" practice sessions laps make up the positions of the starting grid for the race. Thus the entry is "officially" an entrant in the "officially" sanctioned SCCA race.

MGB GT V8 & MG Rover RV8 entries in a sanctioned SCCA race must comply with all the specifications required for entry - and acceptance - into any SCCA sanctioned race.

Study hard in the SCCA 2011 GCR to see what is legal and what is not legal, for official entry into a SCCA sanctioned race.

The field is now open to the many British V8 MGB GT and MG Rover RV8 racers in officially SCCA sanctioned races across the entire USA. Comply with the SCCA GT2 race car requirements and compete with all the other Big Bore SCCA racers.

keep them on the track

phillip g


Bill Young
Bill Young
Kansas City, MO
(1337 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:23AM

Main British Car:
'73 MG Midget V6 , '59 MGA I6 2.8 GM, 4.0 Jeep

authors avatar
Re: TA head in SCCA ?
Posted by: Bill Young
Date: May 25, 2011 09:34AM

Curtis, don't expect the SCCA to make any changes until they can see some results come in and compare the performance and potential for the MG RV8 and other V8s. They set an arbitrary rule base of some bit of past information or experience and won't adjust that until they are proven to be delivering a demonstratable disadvantage to some cars in the class. Phillip and team need to get through the development stage, get a proper race engine built and do some racing before the SCCA will review their case. That takes a certain amount of dedication to come up with entry fees for races you know you won't be competitive in. I think that's a reason so many have moved to vintage racing and away from SCCA. I think that Kent Prather finally hung up the keys to his MGA and built a Miata because he was no longer competitive and I guess it wasn't worth the trouble to petition the SCCA to remove some of the weight penalties he's accumulated from winning so many times and the change of class didn't help either. Hopefully given another year of development and a few races under the belt then Phillip and crew will have enough information to give to the SCCA that they will alter the restrictor plate or remove it all together. At this time with the mule engine we really don't know if the restrictor is hurting us or not, the engine really won't breath well enough at that low a redline to make it a factor it seems. Jessie didn't complain about power or the car seeming to run out of legs on the top end last time out.


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