Race Cars and Motorsports

Here's a news blurb demonstrating the Final Point.

[www.wftv.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2014 09:44PM by Todd McCreary.

Inertia loading/tire shocking the contact patch, in lieu of horizontal G-loads. I believe beneficial tire shock,(superficially increasing the contact patch),can have merit. According to Nikki Lauda,rapid on/off of the throttle, worked for him. When he would get in a corner too hot, and nothing else would save it, this was his last option. At least in slaloms, this seems to assist in maximizing the outboard contact patches, for initial set-up, in the turns. I'm a rank novice, but it seems to work for me.OK, maybe not "rank". My first slalom, ever was at Los Alamitos,Ca. Corvair Club, D-prepaired, very low budget. I was beat .05 of a second, for first place, by a very well prepped Datsun 510. Corvair a better design ? Novice not know.... roverman



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2014 12:01PM by roverman.

roverman
Inertia loading/tire shocking the contact patch, in lieu of horizontal G-loads. I believe beneficial tire shock,(superficially increasing the contact patch),can have merit.

*shrugs*

Who am I to disagree with Niki Lauda?

This brings up a good point though; you'll hear all kinds of crazy things in the pits and from other racers. Some of it well meant, some of it just spinning tall tales but LOTS of it wrong.

Always verify for yourself. If you try something and it doesn't work ... remain aware that you may be trying to do the right thing THE WRONG WAY.

There's many a time I've watched guys get some advice and go out on the track to try to implement it and I'm immediately facepalming because they're doing it the REALLY wrong way.

My father once told one of our friends that when trying to make an outside pass, he should run a shallow corner entry to pinch the inside car down. Which our friend immediately tried to implement. Only he wasn't even up to the passenger door on the car he was trying to pinch down so the other driver had no opportunity to even know that the outside car was pinching him. The inside guy just kept getting bashed in the RR.

This went on for ~5 laps until the inside guy finally got spun and hit, breaking his rear axle out of the car. Needless to say, this caused a lot of hard feelings.

The key here being, IF you want to influence the other driver's line ( and this can be done from either lane ) THEN you have to be far enough forward for him to SEE you. At a bare minimum, you have to be up to his door, just so contact doesn't spin him out.

And now for something a bit different:
[forums.bimmerforums.com]

In addition, you road course boys aren't any more safe than the circle trackers. Summit Point, WV killed an instructor for Hyperfest and two more cars wound up in the trees during a race this month.

[grassrootsmotorsports.com]

[www.your4state.com]

[www.your4state.com]

[www.your4state.com]

I swear, I'm not homo for Jackie Stewart.

[www.youtube.com]

This driver may, MAY be having too much fun:
[www.streetfire.net]

He seems to be much better than the driver in front and the only thing i would complain about would be that he just locks up the brakes and tracks right in behind the spin. However, this does not appear to be a race situation and it may be that he just wanted the other guy to see him laughing. Otherwise, there was no reason for him to even slow down in that corner. :shrugs:

So, this actually started from me cross posting from the Chump Car thread ... only I forgot to get all of the good stuff from that. So, I'ma cross post the rest in this post:

Todd McCreary
TVR Sagaris beating each other up
[www.youtube.com]

Winstanley's car is obviously slower, but what was his specific mistake that allowed the pass?


Hoods does make some outside passes but only on blatantly slower lap cars. i'd have liked to see him try to make a real effort to set Winstanley up properly from the outside on a couple of those corners.

looks to be the Coastal Circuit:
[www.angleseycircuit.com]



BlownMGB-V8
Looked to me like he let him by.



Todd McCreary
Effectually, yes.

But there was a two part driving error which enabled Hoods to drive by. You'll notice that earlier, Winstanley was cutting across Hoods' nose very aggressively. There were several corners where Hoods was almost completely alongside Winstanley AND on the inside of the turn in the braking zone and Winstanley used his better, wider corner entry to carry more speed in and then chop Hoods nose. He probably intimidated Hoods into not getting into the throttle like he normally would but I'd want to compare instrument traces before I made that a definitive assertion. Most road racey guys are finicky like that.

1 - Winstanley cleared the lap car too early before the corner ( as fast as his car would permit him too, sometimes slower is better ). He exacerbated this by slowing for the corner as he moved out.
2 - Winstanley moved to the right, in front of the lap car, in order to get a better arc into the left hand corner. This effectually allowed Hoods a straight line into the corner, which is worse for corner speed but which he used to establish a dominant position ( he was probably nose in front of Winstanley ). Then Hoods carried his line all the way to grass on corner exit, forcing Winstanley to back out.

The lap car IS NOT the threat. Winstanley forgot this and it cost him the lead and the win.

The better answer would have been to slow and just barely clear the lap car by corner entry. Then, hammer through the corner as fast as you can and swing your line all the way out to the grass on corner exit ( max speed ). The lap car isn't going to be there for you and 2nd is going to have his corner screwed up because he's going to be pinned beside the lap car.



Qualifying is the wide entry, perfect apex game. Which isn't useless in a race, but is very nearly so when actually contending for a position. How are you going to cut a perfect line into the corner if the slower guy in front of you is already taking that perfect line? You can't pass a guy if you're under his rear deck lid. You can wreck him from there, but you can't 'pass' him.

Racing is *more about positioning*. Racing is about establishing your own position on the track, taking away the other driver's line and putting him in positions that he is uncomfortable with. Note that this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with touching his car. Although a Chumpcar race is going to have a lot more to do with circle track mentality ( rubbin is racin ) than it is with the normal, "oh my God, don't touch my pristine sheet metal" attitude of an SCCA road racer.

The basic rule of thumb for side-to-side contact is, if the car in front gets turned across your nose, you were wrong. This means that your front tire needs to be near the driver door if the guy on the outside comes down on you.

People say Schumacher was an a-hole. Which, he often was. Sometimes even self destructive and stupid ( he caused a wreck and destroyed his car under yellow while leading Monza once because he idiotically brake checked 2nd place while following the safety car ). What they don't understand is that he was also a circle track mentality in a road racing world. He was constantly putting his car in a position which scared the bejeezus *out of the guys who were next too him*.



DiDueColpi Fred Key
Hey Jim,
Winning is great. Fun is better!



Todd McCreary
And winning while having fun is best. ;-P

Which is what I'm trying to point y'all too. I've started at the front and spent 15 laps running by myself and been bored out of my mind, even though I won. And I've started dead last and finished 3rd and come off the track going, "Hot damn, HOT DAMN! Can we do this again next week?"

Starting at the front and trying to hold on by your fingernails against cars that are clearly faster than you are can be done ... but it's not very satisfying. Starting at the front and running away and hiding from the field is just flat out boring. Figuring out how to slice and dice the pack, that's where your blood gets moving.

Attack is more emotionally satisfying than defense.

Endurance racing tips ( this originally came from the Chumpcar thread so I'm assuming +12 hours ):

#1
Have at least two spare sets of rims. I assume you'll have to mount new tires several times.

#2
Have multiple full sets of lug nuts. When you come in for a pit stop, zip the tires off *and leave the used nuts on the ground*. Have cool lugs in a can or something and use those to mount the new tires. After the car leaves, you can clean up the pit at your leisure and place the 'old' lugs in the can.

People don't consider how blistering hot the wheel assemblies ( including lug nuts ) will get when you're doing a lot of heavy braking.


#3
Install "race style" studs in the wheels, it's much easier to the lug nuts started. And by the time you get done changing four tires the extra speed you'll waste trying not to cross thread the nuts can be minutes per stop. NASCAR boys are down to 12.0 second 4 tire stops ...

What is a "race style" stud? It's an extra long stud that has a section with no threads on it of at least 1/2" in length out at the end. This functions to center and align the nut so that you can then just jam your air wrench on and fire away without worrying about cross threading.



#4
Have a fender tool.

What's a fender tool? It's a homemade contraption that you use to pry the fender back out after you've hit something by levering on the tire or wheel assembly. My old man made his out of a ~2' long piece of scrap leaf spring welded onto the end of a ~3' long piece of 2" dia tube. You're going to want to offset the tube 'handle' mostly to one end of the leaf section so the contraption looks like an 'L' for leverage.

I saw the NASCAR boys trying to yank out a fender *by hand* at Pocono yesterday. I was laughing, because we'uns use tools for that kind of thing down at the amatuer level.

[www.youtube.com]

Moderator Curtis Jacobson
If I could nudge this thread (or start another), it would be toward practical advice for improving car set-up.



Basic Setup concepts ( caster, camber, toe, Ackerman, bump steer ):
[www.circletrack.com]

Checking and Setting suspension alignment; the String is your friend "a ball of string, four jackstands, a tape measure, and a plumb bob":
[www.circletrack.com]



And, the most serious diagnosis problem for a newb, the dreaded "Push Loose".

Beginner drivers have a difficult time picking up on push or understeer because you can usually 'correct' it just by adding more steering angle. Eventually, you'll put enough slip angle into the front end that it will start to drag the car into the corner even though you're killing corner speed.

The beginner often won't notice what's happening because he doesn't recognize what "excessive steering wheel angle" looks or feels like.

The problem comes when/if the front tires grab the track. The sudden transition in grip ( sliding to not sliding ) at the front end will usually break the rear end loose. And, too make matters worse, this will usually happen while you're in the gas trying to accellerate up onto the straight.

EVERYBODY can tell what a loose condition feels like, because you have to counter steer into it or you're going to spin off into the infield. So, you've got a newb trying to fix a "loose" car ... by "tightening" it up. :facepalm:

Needless to say, once you start this cycle you're going to go backwards in a hurry. You may wind up tightening the suspension to such an extant that the front never does grip in the track, in which case you're scrubbing huge amounts of speed all through the corner AND burning your front tires off.

If you're new to racing and you're trying to fix a 'loose' car on corner exit have someone experienced watch you corner and have them evaluate you for corner entry and center.

Earlier I noted that Jackie Stewart breaks corner analysis down into eight parts. Regardless of how many parts you break it down into, the rule of thumb is that you fix corner entry FIRST and worry about corner center next and exit last.

This is because you can't accurately gauge what the car WANTS to do at corner exit until AFTER you fix whatever suspension problems were screwing you up earlier in the corner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2014 12:24AM by Todd McCreary.

On the chump car of course, the hot lug nuts aren't much of an issue because you have a minimum required pit time duration when you stop and I think there may be a minimum required number of pit stops as well. I'll review the regs closely when we are at the point of having a running car. One might say that this encourages sloppy practices in the pits and maybe it does. I think the reasoning is that it is intended to keep things from being overlooked by rank amateurs. In any case it is what it is, might as well take advantage of it.

Looking back to the clip with the Camaro leading the pack, clearly it was his race to throw away and all he had to do was hold off the charge through the corners but as the race wore on he was gradually losing his advantage. Still, after being passed he regained the lead in the straight and his biggest single mistake was in not playing to that strength, forgetting where his advantages and weaknesses were, and attempting to overtake the faster car through the corners. Had he instead continued to rely on superior acceleration where he had the clear advantage, and then simply always insisted on taking the fastest line through the corners as he was in a position to do, I think he could have won the race. I believe he got flustered when the other driver sneaked by him.

Which simply points out that keeping your cool is the surest route to the winner's circle. I'm looking forward to getting out there and mixing it up in the chump car. Should be quite an education.

Jim

BlownMGB-V8 Date: August 05, 2014 03:40PM
Looking back to the clip with the Camaro leading the pack, clearly it was his race to throw away and all he had to do was hold off the charge through the corners but as the race wore on he was gradually losing his advantage. Still, after being passed he regained the lead in the straight and his biggest single mistake was in not playing to that strength, forgetting where his advantages and weaknesses were, and attempting to overtake the faster car through the corners. Had he instead continued to rely on superior acceleration where he had the clear advantage,


The Crystal Palace race? Man Jim, I posted that back in February.

The problem for the Camaro was that the smaller cars were clearly quicker over an entire lap than he was. He was probably losing near a second a lap to them when they were catching him back up after screwing up themselves.

IF one of them can get by him, especially going into some corners THEN unless he passes them back immediately he's never going to get too them again. So, he threw the car away because he was carrying too much speed into the corner because he was carrying too much speed off the end of the straight because he was trying to complete that pass before the opportunity was gone forever.

But I agree, they definitely hounded him into it. You notice that the one guy turned his headlights on. That there tickles my funny bone. That's a driver that's thinking. He weren't none too shy about door to door contact either. Which given that the Camaro was probably +500lbs heavier than he was actually takes some stones.

Yeah, I think it matters a lot where in the twisties the second pass happened. If towards the end and he could hang on to the straightaway he might have had a chance to blow past. He obviously had the superior acceleration. But my guess is that his brakes were starting to give out a bit which would explain the differences from the first few laps. If early on though you are dead right and nothing he could do at that point was going to wind it back in. Apparently that was how he felt about it at the time, but if he'd ignored his mirror and just driven the fastest line as hard as he could consistently there would not have been much they could have done to get by even with the better handling. That kind of driving wears on the nerves though and obviously his competitors were doing all they could to make it as bad as possible. (Well, nearly anyway, I didn't see a whole lot of nudging.)

Jim

and the Final Point gets proven again, by Tony Stewart ( of NASCAR ) and Kevin Ward. Driver fatality and cursing, Not Safe For Work:

NSFW
[www.youtube.com]
NSFW



Getting pushed over the top of the cushion is just a fact of life in dirt racing when you're running the outside. If you have a long career, it will probably happen to you hundreds of times. You have a choice, you can back out or you can eat the wall.

Prior to this incident, I would have said that it was impossible to guarantee that no one would ever crowd you off the top of the track again. Well, I was wrong. Kevin Ward Jr ( age 17 ) showed me an absolutely permanent solution to other drivers "disrespecting" you. He's never going to get forced wide again.

Tony Stewart will, of course, be raked over the coals for this. And he does bear some responsibility here.

But the ONLY reason this happened is because Ward was a dumbass who charged a moving sprint car *on foot* at a dirt track.

Do any of you want to put your children in a race car?

MAKE THEM WATCH THIS VIDEO.

And explain to them in no uncertain terms that much of the risk that happens on a race track *is within the control of the driver*. Kevin Ward made a decision to climb out of his car and charge another car. Ten seconds later, he was dead. When you put your child in a race you are now hostage to the decision making skills and judgment of that child. Do you trust your child not to kill themselves or someone else? Because their every decision could have that result.

I blame movies like Iron Man and Captain America.

Jim

and now for something completely different:
[hugelolcdn.com]

Good video on repetitive concussions by a former F1 doc:

[formerf1doc.wordpress.com]

[www.youtube.com]

Back to the subject of whether or not the outside lane is "viable".

I pointed out earlier that these passes were far more common in stock cars. Well, you are really doing yourselves a disservice if you aren't watching the NASCAR races, both circle track and road courses.

It's not just that the regular drivers have gotten incredibly sophisticated at Watkins Glen and Sonoma and are making outside passes all over the place and making the "Road Course Ringers" look bad.

Kyle Larson is a rookie who's running so high on the track, he's scaring the bejeezus out of the Cup regulars. He's got the cameras on him when he's running by himself. *And he's making it work*. He's got five top 6 finishes in the last six races.

Are there tracks where the outside line is absolutely NOT viable? Yes.

But Larson is demonstrating that not only does an outside lane exist but that you can run higher than ANYONE has even attempted before.

Course, I'm posting this before the Martinsville race ... which is one track where he'll probably have to run low. Heh.

Any thoughts on this?

[www.youtube.com]

On a course that short there is no straight and with only lefts they might as well be in a full time power slide all the way around the track. Have to be right on the edge of traction all the way around. Doesn't take much of a rub to cause big problems. Looks to me like somebody is playing fast and loose with the safety and lives of everyone on the track.

Jim

I'm a friend of smooth driving, handling the tires with care:

[www.youtube.com]