The BritishV8 Pub

Why would you be amazed Rick?

First, let me be clear that I was not badmouthing Larry. I don't know him personally, but I have no reason to question his bona-fides.

There are TWO and only two things that I am ticked off about. First and foremost is the planning of an activity that purports to be inclusive to all British makes on the site of a single manufacturer. Do you think a Healey or a Morgan or a Riley owner is going to see it? No, they will not. so in effect you are planning an exclusive, single make event which presumably will not turn other makes away if they happen to show up. That may be fine for MG owners, but for someone who owns one of those other makes it'd be enough to make them swear off BritishV8 forever.

Do you think that is a good thing?

Second, it is the planning of the event exclusively OUTSIDE of BritishV8. I would have been fine with it IF a reasonable number of postings had been made here to keep us abreast of developments, but that has not happened. The fact of the matter is that Larry has made ONE and ONLY ONE post on BritishV8, and that appears to be somewhat grudgingly, and even then only after he was prompted to do so.

Now you are quite correct that there is no official site connected with the BritishV8 meets, just the same as there is no official organization to the BritishV8 meets, and that is the way we always wanted it. HOWEVER. SHOW ME any other web site that even purports in one forum to represent all makes of British cars which have been modified. Show me one single reason, good or bad, why information about the meets should not be posted on BritishV8.org. Or show me one single break in the chain of continuity from the first days of the MGB-V8 newsletter to today's BritishV8.org and I'll be happy to argue your side.

Truthfully, we should never have reached this point. Whether you agree or not, The MGB-V8 Newsletter was tied more closely to the MGB-V8 meets than any other organization of any sort. Today's BritishV8.org is poised to more closely spread information for that group to all makes that need it than any other forum on the web. Excluding this forum from the planning of the BritishV8 meets is therefore, to my mind one of the most destructive acts that can be committed against the group.

Jim

FWIW, I too have been talking with Larry about the 2014 meet.

At the V8 meets in 2002, and again in 2010, I decided AT THE CLOSING BANQUET to hold the next V8 meet here in Townsend, TN. I did so because no one else had, and at that time it looked as if no one would. I can't remember what promted me to do it in 2006. The point being, it's hard to find someone willing to do the legwork to put on one of these V8 meets, so when someone does, we better jump on it and take them up on their offer. Jim Watson volunteered to do the 2014 meet here in Tennesse, and Larry Barnes volunteered to do a meet in Colorado. A vote was taken on the MGE forum and Colorado won. Until I read the post on here, I had no idea that Steve was planning an event. It's unheard of to have two volunteers, let alone three! We're often lucky to get one.

Larry posted a notice on this very forum thread back on April 19, 2012, giving a tentative outline of his planned program. That was two years and two months prior to the event. I don't think we can expect to get hard, fast details any earlier than that.

One of the remarkable things about these V8 meets is that we've had 16 of them so far, without any central planning or control what ever. Nevertheless, all 16 of them have been very successful. The only thing required is volunteers. Do we want to start now with centralized planning? If we want to make the British V8 Newsletter the controlling authority, then that means Curtis would be in charge of who has the events, when, and where. I'm not sure he would want that added responsibility. And, what gives any of us the authority to assign control anyway?

For the history of planning for the 2014 meet:

This thread, beginning with my post on July 15, 2011

My post on the MGE forum:

[www.mgexperience.net]

Larry's poll on the MGE forum July 16, 2011:

[www.mgexperience.net]

Larry's announcement on MGE March 22, 2012:

[www.mgexperience.net]

and last, Larry's announcement here on this forum April 19, 2012

All that notwithstanding, I can see where Jim is coming from. I'm sure Larry had/has no intention of slighting the British V8 forum, or any other British marques, it's just that he is a regular denizon of the MGE forums, and is just not accustomed to posting here. I can well imagine that Rick has contacted him about this by now, so I won't. I believe we'll see more from Larry on here in the future.

Jim...

First....you owe Larry an apology....better than what I've read above. A statement saying you were not bad-mouthing him is a far cry from an apology.

Second....why are your panties is such a bunch over the MGE? You need to do your homework a little better. Larry has NOT been exclusively planning BritishV8 2014 on that site; he has made VERY FEW posts on the MGE site regarding BritishV8 2014. If you will do an "author search" over there, you'll find that in the past 12 months, Larry has made 19 posts on 4 different threads specific to BritishV8 2014. He set up a couple of polls for comments/wants/wishes; he replied to a few questions; advised of some of his progress. Seems to me that you even made a comment or two on one of the threads without implying all of this hostility. He was not utilizing the MGE a single source of information. As I stated before, it is sometimes up to US to assist in dissemination of information. To imply that he was intentionally coordinating an MG-only event under the guise of BritishV8 2014 is pure bullshit.

As I stated before, Larry was more familiar with the MGE than he was with BritishV8.org...and got involved with discussions regarding the event on the MGE. Priority should be given to BritishV8 2013 now that BritishV8 2012 is in the record books. I'm sure that Bill will be filling us in on his plans.......as will Larry when the time approaches closer and is more relevant. I'm sure that Larry will be posting more here on BritishV8.org in the future.

Third...Is better left unsaid.

Fourth....I was amazed at the lack of respect that you (and others) showed Larry by "shaking the tree" at BritishV8 2012 in an effort to relocate the event to Michigan. It was thinly veiled, my friend. I was amazed at the lack of respect you showed in your entire post, to tell you the truth.

Fifth....Why did you avoid me (and Jean) whilst stirring the pot in Palestine regarding the proposed site for BritishV8 2014? Why did I have to learn about topic this through the grapevine (and I ain't talkin' Grapevine, TX.)?

Sixth...I've already stated that I've been in contact with Larry....I did so on Friday after I got home from Texas.

Seventh...Perhaps someone else should step up to the plate to coordinate BritishV8 2015....this thread has certainly put a sour taste in my mouth for now.

FWIW....YOMV

rick

Thank you, Dan.

Rick, I wasn't avoiding you, and I wasn't "shaking the tree" as you put it. I happened upon a discussion where I learned of Steve's plans after the fact. I may have stated my opinion, but that is no different than you would have done. If you feel I owe Larry an apology, then that is fine by me.

Larry, I hereby publicly apologize if I have in any way offended you with my comments regarding the 2014 meet or for that matter, any other subject whatsoever. Should the meet be held at your locale I will do my utmost to support it. I only ask that all relevant information about that meet be posted on this forum.

Is that sufficient?

I quite agree with most of the things Rick and Dan have had to say. However, I still stand by my original complaints and will defend them if called upon to do so. As time passes I find myself identifying more closely with ALL makes of British sports cars and not just MG's. I quite well understand that being left out can cause resentment. I do not doubt that this result was entirely unintentional on Larry's part, but once we became "BritishV8" rather than "MGB-V8" we took on the responsibility to represent all makes equally, and if that duty applies anywhere it applies the very most where planning of the annual meets is concerned. I do realize that this planning is mostly done over the phone or by private email, but when you have multiple threads and a large number of posts and discussions on an MG board and then only ONE single post ever by the organizer on the one forum that represents all enthusiasts equally, and no follow up whatsoever of a VERY relevant question by an owner of a non-MG make, how can you help seeing how that looks? I don't expect our perspectives to mesh perfectly, but in my opinion, this discussion, far from being a negative thing, is just what is needed to bring this forum back front and center where it should have been all along.

I'm just saying that you can't be all inclusive and then behave as if you were exclusive. Your actions belie your perceived intentions even if they are not your true ones. In the public eye you must pay strict attention to perceptions and this perception definitely needs to be corrected. So will somebody with the authority to do so PLEASE state for the record that this is NOT an MG only event? Please? So far, that particular question has shamefully remained unanswered, even though the answer is quite obvious to, I would think, every single one of us. Here on this forum, in this thread, it still sticks out like a glowing sore thumb. I would answer it myself but I am not qualified to do so, and even though it could have been asked in jest, there it stands, an embarrassment to us all. Rick, you want to know what has me wound up? It just might be that as much as anything.

Dan, Rick, I appreciate both of you guys and maybe more than you know. I consider your counsel wise. I pay attention when you speak. I no more want the planning and execution of the annual meet to be regulated by any person or organization than Dan does, and I am in harmony with you both on most matters. But there is this one thing. I have many times been subjected to prejudices resulting from incorrect perceptions and they are deadly. I love this group of individuals like I love my own family and I do not want to see incorrect perceptions disrupt the harmony we have seen so widespread in the group. In order to prevent that, I am willing to stir the pot a little if it is needed and here, I can most clearly see that it is. I will apologize to both of you, to the entire group, and to anyone else that you think I should if I have caused any offense but I most certainly will not apologize for bringing up matters that must be remedied for the good of the whole.

And by the way, If you can point me to a forum other than this one that fairly represents all modified British sports cars and in which a matter as central to the group as the annual meet has been discussed in any more detail than it has here I will withdraw all of my objections. But you have to admit, there has been FAR more discussion on MGE, and the unavoidable result is that it looks cliquish and that is very very bad.

Jim

You have different sun glasses on than I do, Jim.

I certainly do NOT view the MGE's limited discussions of BritishV8 2014 to date as being cliquish.

That might have been the wrong word. The problem is the perception by the non-MG makes. Think about it. If you're a Triumph man and all you see are the posts here and the question of whether it is an MG exclusive event goes unanswered for over a month, plus you have no clue who this organizer is and nobody is vouching for him or for his commitment to all makes and then you learn the planning has been more extensively discussed on an MG only site, what would you think? I know exactly what I've been told by owners of other makes and I'm pretty sure you don't want to know, but it is most definitely not a step in the direction we want to go. It seems to me that the question was an opportunity to include all non-MG makes. It should have been answered promptly and enthusiastically, but that opportunity was heedlessly squandered. Now it MUST be answered, at the risk of excluding all but MG. Or would you prefer to regress to MGB-V8 only? For that is the choice. Once alienated, you can not expect someone to continue their support, and once their peers begin to leave, a mass exit is inevitable.

Believe it or not, some are still waiting for an official answer to the question: Is this an MG event? And refusing to answer simply affirms it. Since you Rick, are a leader in the group and because you are heavily involved in organizing the annual meets, you are such an authority as is needed and it does fall to you to answer the question in lieu of Larry, who we have not heard from. I hate to lay that one on you, but is it really so difficult? I certainly would think not.

Jim

Jim....I didn't respond to Dan's query because he already knew the answer.

Rick, that is NOT the point. Dan is NOT the only one who has read that question. And despite what you or even I may think we know about what Dan considers the answer to be, I'm sorry to have to tell you that we are mistaken. I would much rather not go into all of the specifics of why that is here on this forum, but what I am willing to tell you is that as far as I can tell his reasoning is valid, his logic is impeccable, and his results could just as easily be arrived at by the owner of any other make who happened to take note. Just that alone practically guarantees that others have already arrived at the same conclusions. Again, his question provided the chance to put the matter to rest and we should have jumped on it with both feet.

Honestly Rick, I can't understand your reluctance. Is this costing you anything? This is not the time to argue for the sake of the argument. If it seems like a contest of wills between you and me, it isn't. The question is not mine, and I will accept either answer. One I think better, but my loyalty does not depend upon it.

Jim

WTF are you trying to imply, Jim?

I really hate this kind of discussions. But I will give you my 2 cents and no one has to read my post.

Why should you and others have a preference of Steve C over someone who is already doing some leg work. Why? Because his name is Steve and he owns autowire. Instead we and that includes you Jim should offer some sort of help if you think he is not doing the right job to fit your taste.

I am going to stop right here. I have lots to say about this preference over others that sometimes is very ovious. I do not want to get in a fifth grader recess word war, so I will stop.

Larry if you need my help, let me know.

Fine Rick. Assume I don't own an MG and try to follow the hypothetical.

No news of a site for 2014
April. Short blurb about Colorado. Nothing on any other site I go to.
Question is raised: Since planning is taking place on MG site, is meet an MG meet?
No answer.
Who is organizer? Some MG guy I don't know and don't know anything about.
Nobody vouches for him.
Clarification is requested. Water is muddied with everything but the one answer I want. MG, or all British?
The one person in the discussion qualified to say refuses to answer.
My inescapable conclusion? MG only meet.

There you go.

Jim

Oh, and I just have to say, it is the absolute height of arrogance to think that any non-MG owner would ever go to an MG only site for any reason, and especially to get info about an all British meet.

In my opinion Rick, it you and not I who owes an apology.

Jim

Geezusfrickinkrist, Jim.

So...you expect me to apologize for my attempt to extinguish the firestorm that you started with your post?

I have NEVER stated that I expected a non-MG owner to visit the MGE for information regarding any of these meets.

Have you even gone back and re-read anything on the MGE?

The posts made by Larry (or any other enthusiast) regarding BritishV8 2014 over there in the past 12 months are MINIMAL!!!

With an event over two years out....there has been NO PLANNING other than some WHAT-IF's.

I feel that Dan's question was PLANTED here on BritishV8.org...(you certainly jumped right on with a response!) and I was completely unaware that YOU ***ASSUMED*** that it fell into my court to answer his question....which because of the souce, I already KNEW that he KNEW the answer to.

Should that question have come from someone who had not attended an event prior to this, someone I'm sure would have answered.

This whole ordeal is becoming a MOUNTAIN being built out of a MOLEHILL.

We need to get through BritishV8 2013...then focus on promotion of BritishV8 2014.

I would really like to find the truth that instigated this whole thread. I've now received two different stories....and the truth lies between the two.

Have a nice day.

There is more popcorn available for those of you reading this thread for entertainment value only.

For the record: I did not plant my question. I thought Dan Masters had said Jim Watson was hosting the meet in Tennessee again. That is all the information I had seen. I do not visit MG Experience, I don't own an MG. I did not know there was discussion about Colorado. I had never heard of Larry. There was one post from him on our forum. I was looking forward to meeting him in Palestine but he was not there. Obviously some of you guys know him. So you say he polled folks on MG Experience? Why not on British V8?
I guess I started all this by asking. I did expect some sort of answer, so folks exclusive of MG Experience (including me) would feel comfortable with the decision. Excuse me for asking.....

For the record...

Jim Watson had expressed an interest in hosting 2014.

Larry Barnes had expressed an interest in hosting 2014.

We've been to Townsend in 2003, 2006, and 2011.

We've never been to Colorado.

In an effort of making the event available to enthusiasts without constantly being in the midwest or east coast, it was thought that Colorado would make for a nice venue, a little more convenient for our west cost enthusiasts.

I did not know that I was the "designated responder" for any of these questions.

Your original question could have been worded a little differently, ie: "For those who have never attended one of these meets, is the event open to all British marques, or is it restricted to MG?" This would have alleviated a lot of this "misunderstanding" that has transpired since March.....

WHOA I did not say that I was planning the 2014 event. What I said is that I had ideas for another event here in michigan and that IF for some reason someone wasn't able to complete what they had planned to do, that I was available I would do it. AT NO TIME DID I SAY THAT I WAS PLANNING THE EVENT.

JIM I told you to talk to Rick about your concerns, and you choose not to. YOU OWE ALOT OF PEOPLE AN APOLOGY

I love the rockies and look forward to the trip

Steve Carrick

Steve, if you said that to me I didn't hear it. Seemed to me it was more your concern than mine anyway whether or not you hosted the meet. So don't yell at me about apologies. As far as I can tell, you were the one who started that conversation. I was just agreeing with you.

Guys, can we take this down a notch? Why is it so hard for anybody to just say it IS an all British event? Just because it was Dan who asked the question? You think I put him up to it or something??!! Honestly, I was as surprised as anyone, and I asked him, are you serious?

He was. And as far as I can tell, still is. And if he is, what about the average TR guy who has never been to a meet?

So if someone as close to the action as he is can seriously ask that question, how about those we are trying to bring in? Wouldn't it be better to squelch any shade of a question about it as early as we could? Is it really more important to rear up and say, "I shouldn't have to answer" than it is to create the best impression we can for our group by saying, "Of course it's an all inclusive event, you of all people should know that by now." Or "Anyone who has that question may rest assured that we will never exclude them" or something like that.

Why you Rick? Just because there is no other respondent to this thread more qualified than you. It should be Larry but he is noticeably absent. Who else could do it? Dan Masters? Steve Carrick? Me? Would an answer by any of us carry the same weight? Dan's probably would but not the rest of us.

Jim

I guess I owe everyone an apology. I took the initiative to get the 2014 discussion going, but then I failed to follow up and spread the word properly. Mea Culpa! I'm guilty of tunnel vision - I assumed, evidently, that because I read the MGE forum, every one does. Surprisingly, there are lots of folks who don't read any forum, and there are still lots of British Car conversion owners that still don't know about our annual meets. We (including me) need to do a lot better job of spreading the word.

Nevertheless, it should not be a problem this far out. We're still waiting for the final details of the 2013 event - no matter how good Bill Y is at planning (and he seems to be pretty good), final details can't be arranged until much closer to the actual date. For 2014, a date and location is about as good as we can expect now (actually, that's a full year ahead of where we normally are).

Rest assured, the 2014 meet WILL BE the British V8 2014, all inclusive - Triumphs, Minis, Wolseys, MGs, Austin Healeys, V8, V6, V4, I4 - any British car with any engine or engine modification. You're even welcome if you come in a Toyota (as I have), rental car (as many of us have done), walk in, ride your bike (motorised or not), or, for Bill G, a wheelchair (just kidding, Bill).

Awesome!