MG Sports Cars

Jim,

Looks good to me. I really like the air cleaner.

Steve

Yeah, it's starting to grow on me. The more I look at it the better it looks. Too bad we don't have a sunroof though, it's going to be pretty hard to put in an "8 ball" shifter knob that sticks up above the roof without one. Then we need a set of big old gnarly slicks to put on the back and we'll just about be there once the smoke starts rolling off the tires. That'd be a cool photo op. Well, I guess that gives us something to work towards for next year.

But hey man, next year is going to be a little different I think. I'll probably only work on the car when other people are here to work on it too. I mean, it's not my car you know? And my car needs put together too. Plus Indy is only a little over an hour away so I really need to have my car ready by next year's meet because we can get both of them there with it that close. Unless of course somebody else has it by then, doing the body work or something.

Anyway I've got a few more pictures. I've been trying to get it close enough that if anybody wants to do things like change plugs, run wires and things like that then maybe we can fire it up for the first break in run while we're at the meet. And Dale knows a guy with a dyno so I'll try to weld up a driveshaft if I have enough time to do it, but no promises. And I've been thinking about the radiator. I'll bring the one Pete donated but I don't think it will be big enough, so I mocked up the biggest one I could stuff into the available space made out of cardboard boxes. It's around 230-250 sq. in. of surface area and would be a 2 pass cross-flow design, maybe in 2 core aluminum. That might be big enough to do the trick. The driver's side end tank might be a little tricky but nothing we couldn't sort out.

Jim

Jim, Might want to check your core area calculations. My 3 row crossflow rad is about 16" wide x 18" tall (approx 290 sq in) and your mocked up rad looks significantly larger than mine.

Yeah, you got me there, that was the number for the radiator on my car. So now maybe I measured wrong but I keep coming up with about 600 sq.in.+

I'll bring the mock-up to the meet and we can draw lines and circles on it and make notes. For an engine-forward car it could be the ultimate radiator but it requires moving the slam panel to work I think.

Jim

I did some "whitttling" on the CAD radiator program (cardboard aided design) and overdid it I'm afraid, the thing got all wobbly. So I'm starting fresh with a new box. It's thicker at 3 inches, and the dimensions are a little closer so it's a better fit. I blacked out the end tank areas at 2" but then calculated area based on 1-1/2" tanks because that is what the hose necks on the engine are. Here's what the new design looks like:







I have no idea what was going on with those numbers I was getting earlier, but my calculator seems to be working much better today. Sunspots I guess. Anyway, the radiator from Pete is 13 x 18 for 234 Sq. In. of fin area and 2 rows for 2-1/2" of thickness. This mock-up at 3" thick has 336.5 Sq. In. of area, or 320 with 2" end tanks. Assuming Pete's rad is good for a 302 application and using the roughly150% displacement increase we'd be about 20 sq. in. below optimum and we could pick that up by extending the bottom another 1-1/2 inches. Using Graham's 290 sq in as a guide we're about 100 sq in undersized and his is a 3 row. We need some more information on typical radiator sizes for BBB applications I think. It looks to me like going this route and making the core as thick as is practical is going to just cover it. But I'm hoping someone with some industry experience can jump in here and set us straight. What's you opinion Graham?

Jim

Victor Guerrero has a T-shaped radiator in his MGB: [www.britishv8.org]

For reference, Victor has dyno-test reports that show his 383 Chevy at 435hp.




But frankly, I think James Bowler has a better idea:
Fluidyne aluminum 2-row universal/racing single-pass crossflow radiator, with Chevy ports.
(Overall: 22"Wx"19"Tx2.50"D. Core: 17"Wx19"Tx2.25"D. 1.5" upper hose, 1.75" lower hose.)
323 square inches of racecar radiator for just $180. How can you beat that?





Additional photos appear here: [www.britishv8.org]

You'll want to complete the installation with blocking and seals so airflow can't bypass the radiator core. Install a big fan, preferably "pulling" and with the motor spaced away from the core but with a shroud or fan ring to improve fan efficiency. An air dam that routes air to the sides (as opposed to a gravel pan that routes air downward) should improve cooling by helping to keep air pressure relatively low under the car. Surely airflow is a more important cooling system parameter than radiator size.

Way to many variables here to say what core area would work and the selection will probably depend more on getting good fan performance/airflow. Shroud design, recirc design, fan resistance, use of additional coolers (like A/C condenser), etc, all enter the design picture.
I'm totally in agreement with Curtis as trying to promote a conventional shape rectangular core rather than a “T” shape, not only for cost and simplicity but also to promote better airflow (better fan sweep on core), and through allowance of a better shroud design. In short, concentrate on promoting airflow rather than overpromoting core area.
Other things we may consider:
1) Since we are unlikely to operate this vehicle in the Winter months, use a 20-80 Glycol/water mix in lieu of 50/50.
2) Use a 180F stat in lieu of a 195F so that coolant flow starts earlier.
As a thought, maybe you could take a walk through the local bone yard and look at some cooling combinations for big block engines (C3 Corvettes w/454, '70's TransAms w/455, Buick Centurian, GS w/455, etc ) and get a feel for rad sizes and fan sizes.

Yeah probably someone should do that. There aren't any good junkyards around here.

I don't know if James' idea is better or not though. He doesn't have a front bumper. And with or without it, one little tap at the front end and that radiator is toast. He's created a crumple zone right around the radiator tanks and that's the path of least resistance. Somebody backs into the car parallel parking and it's time for a new radiator, even if the bodywork is minimal. Considering all the different people we are going to have driving the car I'm just not confident that weakening the main frame rails in between the bumper supports and the car body is anything close to a good idea. It just seems unsound to me. I mean, sure if you consider anything forward of the engine to be cosmetic, but don't we need a little durability on the street? Not everyone is going to be that careful, especially not SUV driving soccer moms with big plastic bumpers. Heck, for that matter, with my trailer I rely on the bumper and overriders to keep the hood and grille away from the front trailer bulkhead. A good hard stop would probably be enough to trash that set up. And reinforcing the body to add back the strength lost by notching the frame rails will cost more than the extra for a custom radiator I would imagine. I've had custom radiators made, and there are shops that specialize in that kind of work who charge reasonable prices.

Of course we could just install Pete's radiator and take a chance on chronically overheating the engine. I've been down that road too. How long do we want this engine to last?

Jim

Another idea, how about if we separate the different sized radiator sections?That way each piece is optimized for it's location and it might even be cheaper that way. Maybe we could even mount the top section more upright and slant the lower one more. Or, maybe a section above the frame rails and a longer one below them. There'd be a gap between them of course, space for a future oil cooler maybe? What we lost on height we could make up on width. Just throwing out ideas here, I'd like to come up with a good solution without cutting the car body, and I'd like to get as much radiator in the car as we can within reason. My experience is probably not representative of the average but it does tell me that you can't get too much radiator area. Getting enough airflow through the radiator is the second leg of this problem of course. It does seem to me that there is such a thing as too mush airflow. Once it starts kicking up dust from underneath the car it becomes objectionable. My crank driven 6 blade 17" rigid fan did that. Well guys, you know me, "There's no kill like overkill." Maybe we could pipe the coolant to the rear and stick a big radiator up into the airflow above the tail. Shape it sorta like a wing and use it to generate downforce too. I know, deflect the air downwards through the core. That way we could have this big honkin radiator built into a big honkin rear wing, run the coolant up one side and down the other and all the heat would be behind the car. Wouldn't be no problem getting a big enough core that way and with a big enough core, who needs a fan? That would work, right?

Jim

Edit: I meant deflect the air upwards. How's it going to make downforce unless it goes Up?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2009 01:15PM by BlownMGB-V8.

In the photos above, I don't see any sheetmetal at all between the bumper and the engine. And now you're talking about crashworthiness, Jim? Were you planning on putting some sort of reinforcement back into that area? The MGB chrome bumper is weak... and you seem to be assuming that the frame extensions on either side will protect the radiator in an accident. They might, but they're not particularly strong by themselves. If no reinforcements are being added back in, I don't think your proposal protects the radiator(s) appreciably better than James Bowlers' approach. James left the slam panel (where the hood latch goes) and he also left in the front part of the stock radiator shelf... Have another look at the tubing he's added back in to reinforce the area too.

Assuming someone might one day have to replace a radiator, wouldn't a $180 off-the-shelf replacement be preferable to a custom radiator (or radiators) that cost twice that or even more? I'm skeptical you'll buy any custom aluminum radiator for less than about $400 - let alone a great big one.

---

I have a tip to pass along about semi-custom radiators:

AFCO charges very minimal fees for modifications to their standard radiators. Compared to buying a true "custom" radiator, this can be a great bargain! I bought an AFCO "Scirocco" dual-pass aluminum radiator last month and I had them weld in a 1.5" port where a 1.75" port was standard (as preferred for Chevy drag racers. My radiator is routinely used by 900hp cars, but only for a quarter mile out and a quarter mile back!) I also had AFCO weld in a bung for my vent line to the header tank. It was a bargain, and only added a couple days to delivery time. AFCO customer service is exceptional.

I wouldn't be surprised if Griffin offers a similar rework option, but I know Fluidyne doesn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2009 01:17PM by Moderator.

Great tips Curtis. I just got some relevant info on sizing that should get us in the ballpark. According to a company that does only hot rod cooling, their rule of thumb for fin area is 1 sq. in. per cubic inch of displacement, (about what Graham is running) and for 400-600 hp engines (ours will be right at 500 according to a knowledgeable BBB engine builder) 2 rows of 1-1/4" tubes. So about 460 sq inches, maybe a little less with a 3" core.

So here's a thought. The top of our mock up is just over 200 sq. in., meaning we'd need 260 or so from the bottom. At a 6" depth (putting the bottom about level with the crossmember) that works out to about 42" across. I think it would be possible to fit a 42 x 6" unit under the car but the shrouding would be a challenge off course. On the other hand, if we just cut away anything that's in the way, a 16" tall radiator 29" wide would do the job just fine. The bumper goes away of course, there's no feasible way to support it. If that's what you guys want to do, we can. There's probably a stock radiator real close to that size. That's 32" with minimal end tanks so we'll need to cut the channels where the fenders bolt down or else put it in from the bottom, cut away the inner fenders and box them in, and probably remove everything else in front of the radiator except the slam panel and the grille. It doesn't sound all that pretty but it would be cheaper for sure. And easier. So we probably ought to discuss those two options and anything else we can think of and bring it up for a vote on Monday the 8th. How else can we solve this riddle?

Jim

No more ideas? I'd thing there would be other ways to do it. It's a GT, how about a roof radiator? Hasn't that been done? I saw several rear mounted radiators in the LeMons race photos...

Jim

Seems to me like if folks can kick up the rear of a chassis & that handles the stresses of the rear suspension, we should be able to kick out the front rails in a way that allows a wider radiator & still leaves sufficient strength for the bumper in a mild bump. Let's face it, with much more than a mild bump there's going to be plenty to fix anyway.

I'm skeptical of rules-of-thumb. There are so many variables that it's nearly impossible to know what "safety factor" is built into them. My instinct is to go with as big a radiator as fits the space reasonably, and then try to make it work by optimizing every other aspect (specifically airflow, airflow, and airflow...)

Yes, its a 500hp motor but it's hardly ever going to be producing a quarter of that because the car is relatively light and relatively aerodynamic. This car should purr down the Interstate at idle speed. How much horsepower will that require?

The engine will never have to work hard for more than a quarter mile or twelve seconds (whichever comes first.)

I expect the biggest challenge will occur when sitting still. This car may need a great big fan (or two) and a really smart fan shroud.

Jim,

If I can offer any advice for the car it would be to fit the biggest practical size rad you can in as near stock position as possible and then make sure airflow is maximised.

The best solution to my mind is to make sure the air actually passes through the rad and to do that you need to make up a duct out of ally sheet like a square U section that fits between the the bottom of the front valence and seals to the bottom tank of the rad with the sides going up and fixing to the chassis rails.

This stops the air escaping under the car and bypassing the rad which also has the benefit of reducing front end lift at high speed.

You then need to allow the air to escape from the engine compartment and I suggest cutting some round holes in the inner wings to the low pressure area in the wheel arches, which will also have the effect of reducing drag.

In my car when the fans cut in, the amount of hot air that escapes through the front wheelarches is enormous.

Or if you are feeling really adventurous you could as I've seen in a race MGB mount a rad in the spare wheel well with it angled high towards the front of the car and low at the back fully ducted and pulling air in through a mesh section in the floor and exiting through the rear panel with a big fan and then you also have a ground effect fan car! You'd have to find some where to mount a fuel tank though, but the front end could be sealed except for ducting for the carb if necessary, the aerodynamic efficiency would increase dramatically.

Kevin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2009 03:29AM by castlesid.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. What other suggestions? My experience in this area is limited to the 250 sq. in. x 3" radiator in my roadster. With a maximum efficiency core (brass), fully shrouded, and a solid crank driven 17" 6 blade fan on my blown 215. (so more than adequate airflow) More would have been nice, but it was adequate. That was at about 300 hp. Considering the service this car will see I'm not sure adequate is good enough. Not to belabor Curtis' point which is very relevant, I agree that sitting and idling in traffic is going to be the biggest cooling challenge if we do our job right. Potential horsepower is certainly relevant, but I don't know if it's more relevant than displacement. The people I copied the recommendations from base fin area on displacement and core thickness on horsepower. Exactly why that is I don't know but there must be some basis for it. I think Kevin's suggestion has some real merit and would suggest we explore that idea further, as well as ideas for modifying the front of the car to allow use of a suitably large radiator. We're in relatively uncharted territory here so any help from any similar application should be a benefit.

I just got back from Iowa, a trip for Matthew's benefit, and found the pushrods waiting for me. They look perfect (and should!) so I'll get the top end buttoned up right away. Our valve covers will undoubtedly leak oil, but for now they'll keep the dust out I think. I'll probably go ahead and fill the crankcase and prime the oil system and I'll try to remember to re-torque the heads one more time.

About the paint, has anyone given any thought to doing the body up in a "wrap"? Does anyone know what the cost of that would be? Can anyone find out? It would be nice to know if that is an option.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2009 08:08PM by BlownMGB-V8.

The car is on the trailer and ready to go. As we expected, it isn't ready to be fired up just yet but we haven't missed it by much. Close enough in fact that for all practical purposes I think we've met our timeline goal of making it run in time for the meet. In fact, we *could* fire it up but in the interest of safety and a long life we should wait for a few things like the radiator and the clutch release bearing to be installed. I'm bringing along quite a few parts though in case anyone wants to take a crack at the remaining items.

So that's about it for now, see ya at the meet!

Jim

The Roadmaster is coming along nicely...great to see it in Durham.

Thanks to all who bought t-shirts, made donations, etc.

Let's stay on track and have this car roadworthy for British V8 2010 in Indianapolis!

Yes, what Rick said. A few items of interest. The day at Flying Circus was very good for us. Not only did we get to put the car up on the lift so that one and all could inspect it from every angle, not only did we meet the representatives from Grassroots Motorsports who took a great interest in the project (Let's all be watching for their next issue to see if they mention us), but before we left we had an answer to our wheel and tire dilemma.

Having ridden over in the tow vehicle, Steve DeGroat was over by the car selling T-shirts to help raise money for the project, Bill Young, Bill Guzman and I were over by the banquet table (betcha didn't see that one coming) debating the lug nut sizes on the car when I suggested we just look at them. Since we had no measuring tools with us Bill G was going to measure the stud diameter with his "stud" (according to Bill Y) and I wasn't touching that one at all. But as it turned out we had a full set of lug nuts so there were no exposed studs to be seen. Ever ready to help I suggested we just look at one on the parts cars parked nearby and we'd no more than set off in that direction when I spied a nice looking set of 17" wheels and announced, "We need those wheels!" "MAX!!!" "WHERE"S MAX!!!!" "WE NEED THESE WHEELS!!!"

Max was soon found, convinced, and went off to find Toby and we were soon trying them on for size while I asked Toby what sort of a deal we could make. Now I'd like to point out that I left a lot out concerning all parties involved, Including Toby's accidental answering of the initial question that sent us on the quest in the first place. We learned we have BOTH sizes of lug nuts on the car, 7/16 on the Malibu hubs and 1/2" on the Jag ones. But more to the point, after a short consultation Toby came back and said he'd like to contribute the wheels and tires to the project!



Someone later tentatively identified these as Jaguar XK8 wheels, they fit well, will let us run decent sized rubber, and clear the brakes so I'd say we owe a big thanks to Flying Circus for helping us out here. We loaded the tires up in the GT and since cars were beginning to leave, went ahead and trailered the car, after which I got artwork from Toby, again expressed our thanks and headed back to the Motel.

Anybody notice something missing in this story? Yep, sure enough after we unloaded the car in the motel parking lot I realized I didn't have a chair to sit in. So I called Carl who was still back at the Circus helping repair a member's car. Said, Carl I have a favor to ask. "So do we." I left my chairs. "That ain't all you left! You left the T-shirts, the table, your HAT, and what about STEVE?!!!"

I guess the excitement was just too much for me. Steve was good natured about it, but I don't expect I've heard the end of that episode. Everything got worked out, and best of all, WE GOT WHEELS!!!! Very nice ones at that.

There's a lot more to tell and I hope some others will jump in here and share. Stories about racing, partying, and all the rest. For now I should probably stick to the project. Anyway we couldn't possibly have hoped for a better outcome in the tech session. Who knows, we might even get some good publicity from it. But at the very least we sold shirts, raised donations, showed off the car from every angle, and GOT WHEELS!!! (I'm still a little excited about that.) Dave Van Wyck's beautiful exhaust system was a work of art and a real big hit by the way, with comments like, "That's the first time I've EVER seen the exhaust run over the half shaft, it looks great!" (Bill G.)

Back at the motel we continued discussions on various aspects of the car and it soon became pretty obvious to most of us that there were a couple of guys who really knew their stuff when it came to cooling systems, and the result was that our noble Secretary, Graham Crestwick and our honored benefactor Curtis Jacobson agreed to come up with some specific recommendations on the radiator and fan setup for the car. These men have my full faith and confidence, if anyone in our group is able to get us a suitable cooling package it would be these guys.

We had the second annual meeting of the British American Deviant Automotive Sports-car Society outdoors amid strong attendance. Pete Mantell was good enough to set up his scales and we weighed the car.



As you can plainly see, the results are pretty consistent with what we've been seeing in many of our conversions, and not much different from a stock MGB. Now admittedly we still have to add some weight. Radiator, battery, seats and dashboard still to come plus front calipers, coolant and some fuel. But it looks like our 2500# target is well within reach. Another target was to have the car running by this year's meet and strictly speaking we were a little short, but so close that in principal that I announced the goal accomplished. In truth though we *could* have fired up the engine we're better off waiting to put a good radiator in the car.

Two final things and then I'll finish up. First, we did take a sharpie and write all over the car. Contributor's names, sponsor's logos, funny comments, I'd love to post a photo but since all we had was black it doesn't show up too well. But this is a tradition that we need to continue at least up until the time that we put a quality paint job on the car, and perhaps beyond. so those who plan to be at Pete's cook out, bring your markers! Finally, the last thing I want to mention is money. This time it's good news! We all know the struggle we've had to finance this project, the corners we've cut to stretch the dollar. And we've done exceptionally well. Maybe at some point Steve can give us an idea of how much actual money we've spent on the car or maybe not but by any estimate it is going to be well below the cost of a comparable or even an average conversion. We came into the meet owing Dale nearly $500 for hard parts which he had bought for us to be able to complete the heads. After contributions and T-shirt sales we came away with around $1200, and this was after we paid back what we owed to Dale! Rick Ingram once again leapt into the breach, with a pledge that Dale would not go home empty handed. Well, not only did he not go home unpaid, he sponsored us even further by putting a certificate worth $500 in machine work in the Banquet auction. That certificate sold for $300 which went directly into the Deviants general funds and the winner took home quite a bargain. Those of us who bid but did not win all agreed we would, any one of us, have gone much higher had we an immediate need, and even so coveted the prize.

I could go on and on. The Banquet and auction itself is always the high point of the meet and this year was exceptional. (Except for Steve Carrick stealing my water glass) But some of those stories are for others to tell and I'll leave you now with this thought. Progress on this project has been nothing short of phenomenal and we fully expect to drive the car next year. Some changes are in the works, in September it will probably go to Mantell Motorsports where a different group can easily come into play and it may travel more after that. But the thing to remember is that this is your car. It isn't mine, or Steve's or Pete's, and for us to reach our goals which sooner than later will have us enjoying the fruits of our labors we need to pull together as a team. But just as importantly, we are a family. We share a closeness and cohesiveness almost never seen in organizations of this type. That, more than anything else that we've done is something to be cherished and nurtured.

GO DEVIANTS!!!

Jim

I'm going to copy the task list from the work weekend thread. Below is a list of small tasks that we can take care of:

-Install front brake calipers/install master cylinder/bleed brakes
-Install HTOB/clutch master/bleed (Brian is exchanging for a shorter unit)
-Install shifter
-Install fuel pump, connect carb, check operation
-Install engine wiring
-Install throttle linkage
-Install battery
-Install dash/connect gages/hook up wiring
-Install seats
-Install new e-brake pawl
-Install console
-Install spark plugs/wires/distributor
-Install PCV plumbing
-Install hood struts
-Install hatch struts
-Install radiator/hoses/wiring
-Install interior trim
-acquire and install the correct lug nuts

Dave Kirkman is getting a battery and K&N oil fliter, Tom Caine has picked up a Jag XJ6 radiator as suggested by Graham, Dave Van Wyck is bringing a pair of fiberglass fenders. Can somebody look into getting the lug nuts? XK8 wheels, 7/16" lugs on the front (chevy) and 1/2" lugs on the rear (JAG), it looked to me like a shanked and shouldered lug nut with a flat seat.

Jim