Engine and Transmission Tech

Hello Everyone,
Newbie here...I've got a lead on a rebuilt Buick 215 with a T5 that doesn't have the
Bell housing...I would definitly appreciate some suggestions as to a reasonable price for this.
Price at the moment is 3500...I'm thinking more like half of that...
Also Since there isn't a Swedish V8 site like this maybe if any of you know of anyone
who has put one of these motors into a Volvo 1800 I'd love to hear about it.
Thank you,
Andrew

There are rebuilt engines and then there are rebuilt engines! Who built this one? To what specs? Where in the world? Has it run yet? When was it built-up and how has it been stored since? Does it come with any sort of guarantee or warranty?

$3500 could be an amazing bargain or it could be a complete rip-off. I have it on good authority that one of the 3.5L Rover engines featured on BritishRacecar.com cost over $20,000 to build, and it's only expected to last a season or so before being refreshed.

In the specific case of Buick 215s, you'll want to know exactly which pistons were used because that determines compression ratio. For any rebuilt engine, you'll probably want to know how much oversize they went on the pistons/bores and how much under-sized on the bearings (main and rod) - because those numbers reveal how close to worn-out the engine was when the machine shop got it.

Back in the day, Buick used "rope" seals at both ends of the cranksfaft - but you'll want to hear that those have been upgraded. Which camshaft? (Camshaft clearance and installation technique are important!) Were the heads skimmed? (It might not have been necessary, but if they skimmed the heads it raised the compression ratio and likely required extra work to get the valve geometry right.) What did they do to renew the valve guides? Which intake manifold? Which carburetor? Which front cover and water pump? Which distributor? Which starter? Does it come with flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch?

On this board, you will find a lot of discussion about enhancing the lubrication system on these engines. People put a lot of effort into boring out passages, installing oversize pick-up tubes, etc. - I personally think the problem is exaggerated - but some very smart and experienced people here disagree with me. For certain, you want to know that the oil pump clearances check out good... (The oil pump consists of two gears that spin within a cavity in the front cover. The best bet is to get a new front cover, especially since your new front cover will also come with a neoprene crankshaft seal!) At the bottom end of the gears there's a valve body. The wear surface there is critically important. It must not be damaged (scuffed). Again, the best bet is to use a new valve body. I think we're now unanimous that you neither need nor should you want a high volume oil pump with extended length gears!

The machine shop in the back of your local NAPA or Carquest probably has every machine and knows every technique to build a perfectly serviceable Buick 215 for street use - these engines aren't exotic and anyone who says otherwise is a scam artist - but even at that, there are multiple ways to do just about every machining operation right down to honing the bores or refurbishing the valve guides. We actually have some pretty good articles in our archive about machine shop services and techniques. "Engine Builder Handbook" by Monroe (HP Books) is also a very good reference for anyone who wants to know about the general stuff. "How To Power Tune Rover V8 Engines" is interesting, but probably complete overkill for those of us that just want a good reliable 215.

It's been over twenty years since I built my own Buick 215, but even back then I bet I easily had over $2000 in the job and that didn't include any assembly labor. It's been a very good little engine.

I expect you could easily find a good junkyard transmission for just a couple hundred bucks. There's always some risk to buying a junkyard transmission, so I paid almost exactly $1000 for a brand new T5 back when you could still buy them new. Tremec bought the rights to Borg Warner's design and still produces new T5-based transmissions. I think their pricing starts around $2000.

Now - about Volvo P1800s - I want you to know that they will ALWAYS be welcome on this message board. You are obviously a man of impeccable taste. There are more than a couple Volvo enthusiasts here. (Since last autumn, my "other" car is an 850.) The P1800 is special among Volvos because the early ones were built-up in England. You'll even find one in the "Other British Cars" section of our Photo Gallery. (I wish it had the engine you're thinking of using...) Here's a quote from the article:

Quote:

The P1800 is unique among Volvo cars. In the early sixties Volvo actually had more market share in the U.S. car market than any of the English sports car brands. (In 1963 Volvo passed Peugeot to become the second best-selling import brand, behind only Volkswagen.) Volvo was keen to extend their success even further by offering a sports model.
Ever pragmatic, Volvo chose to partner with English suppliers. For one thing, Volvo didn't yet have experience or production capability for unibody construction, so they were looking for a supplier with this expertise. For the first few years of its production, the Volvo P1800 was assembled in England by Jensen Motors. In those early years, about forty percent of "part numbers" on the P1800 corresponded to English-made parts. Body panels were made by "Pressed Steel" (a division of BMC) in Scotland. Many other parts were sourced in Germany, France, the United States, and Italy. The engines were made by Volvo in Sweden. These early P1800 cars are sometimes called "The English Volvos".

Andrew, Welcome. I take it your based in Sweden ? I would pm "Jukka", of this forum by checking Rover V8 post here in archives. He lives in a nearby country, and has a well built Rover,(Merlin heads), in a 57'?-Morris Minor. Rover V8 should be a better option in your surrounding areas.Good Luck, roverman.

Thank you for the great replies....I will use those tips....My looking at the 215 engine comes
from the frustration of having to shell out 6k for a builder to get me 150hp out of a B20...(1800's stock engine)
I just can't accept that so I'm looking at alternatives including the 2006 GM 3.5 or 3.9 V6...targeting around 200hp
the engine bay on the Volvo is quite tight in length and width.I think I have 22" height from crossmember to hood..but the 215 seems very compact ...
There must be some dimesional drawings or numbers somewhere in the archives here..
Thanks Again,
Located in Vancouver Canada.

Andrew, not sure if you caught Art's reference to the Rover V8's. The 3.5-3.9L rover motor is an updated version of the Buick 215. It fits the same and you can find much lower mileage motors with more to choose from if you include them in your search.

Ok thanks guys ..now can you help me out ....looking for some very basic info like commonly swapped V8 V6 engine dimensions....
It's all just pie in the sky otherwise....please direct me to FAQ if you have one on this site.
A.

Rover: [www.v8register.net]

Ford 302: [www.expeditionlandrover.info]

60° GM V6: smaller (didn't find a link to it)

Thanks Rob ....I guess that might decide it for me. A full 6 inches too tall...
I just don't get it...mg's seem much smaller than my Volvo...I saw pics of a 215 in a
Volvo 122...he also used a Mustang II front end so I guess that's why.
A.

Hi Andrew,
The problem with the 1800 is mostly in engine bay width. Any thing with a 90' V configuration is going to run into the brake master first and the steering box and shaft second. A V8 will fit with some considerable work but unless you do your own conversion the price will be exorbitant. My ES runs an 850 turbo engine that took some work to fit but kept the car all Volvo. The twin turbo S80 engine can also be made to fit. The B234 16 valve and the B21/23/230 turbo or non will all bolt in place. All of these engines will get you 2-400 hp or more.
The good old B20, built well, can supply a reliable 200hp. Mated to the close ratio rally trans it's hard to beat. 6K to build a solid vintage motor is actually pretty reasonable. 150 hp seems a little low as even the stock E motor was good for 130. Blown the B20 can do 300hp all day long.
If I were doing another one I'd look long and hard at the VW VR6 style of engines. They are short, low and powerful. And oh yeah it sounds fantastic.
Aftermarket support is big for these motors. Cams, heads, turbos, stroker kits, etc are readily available.
Fit tight to the firewall weight distribution in the 1800 would be near perfect. toss in a nice 6 speed trans and whats not to like?
If you really want a V8 what about a Volvo? They made one back in the 60's. It only weighed a billion lbs. and at full song was good for around 5hp.
Or more seriously the xc90 V8. Short, narrow and rev happy. You would have the only one!
Anyway I'm starting to ramble,....must stop..now..before another..project........
Cheers
Fred

If a Ford fits:
[www.google.de]

Another one:
[www.google.de]

Another one:
[www.google.de]

Another one:
[jbayls.com]

Another one:
[www.google.de]


My mate has a Rover in his Volvo Amazon (P120) and it fits too.

Cheers
Migge

It's tricky to measure/compare V8 engines because they're irregularly shaped. I would expect a Buick 215 to fit a lot easier than a small block Ford because its oil pan is shallower for the front six or seven inches (due to oil pick-up placement)... which seems to invite placing the Buick engine further forward, overtop the Volvo's crossmember instead of behind it as shown for example in the installation that's in our own photo gallery. That swap involved a lot of sheetmetal work at the firewall and the front of the transmission tunnel. (Incidentally, they probably wouldn't have needed to widen the driveshaft tunnel if they'd used a T5 instead of a T10 because the T5 has an integral shifter linkage.)

Ok thanks Fred and others for the posts..While we're talking about B20's Fred in your opinion what's the max one can get out a d-jet B20?

In regards to the 215 what is the distance between the bottom of the oilpan
And where the oilpan sits on the crossmember?

The Djet injection won't be the limiting factor in your quest for power.
The intake manifold will.
With some mild porting of the manifold, decent head work and a good cam 180 streetable hp is realistic.
Boring the engine out to 2100cc won't get you any more hp but will improve torque which is what you need.
The actual Djet "system" will support whatever power level that you want to tune it to.
The problem is it's an ancient analogue system that has A.D.D.
It's attention span is very short.
What you tune it to today isn't how it will run tomorrow.
If you want to keep the Djet look, just change out the processor for a more modern unit like the SDS or a Mega squirt.
If you want a little more and still want a bolt in affair then the b230FT would be my next choice.
Stone stock with the factory turbo + kit you get 185hp.
Throw in an "A" cam and some more boost and 250hp is attainable.
This engine is capable of much more but improvements start to become costly.
You have a lot of options available. It just depends upon the size of your cheque book.
Cheers
Fred

Hi, here are a couple of links that i found. I´ll do some more digging at swedish speaking sites. These are prabably all familiar to you.

[jalopnik.com]

[forums.swedespeed.com])

If you want a V8 I would definitely look at Chevy LS engines. Judging by the latter pics it fits "quite" easily under the hood.

[www.p1800gt.se]

This site details some work fitting a Volvo XC engine into a wagon.

Another thing that I forgot: 2 or 3 years ago there was an article in swedish magazine about a Volvo 122 with a Volvo 5 cylinder engine, IIRC Volvo T5R. This was couple to a rwd Volvo tranny. I´ll try to find the article for more info.

Quote:

If you want a V8 I would definitely look at Chevy LS engines. Judging by the latter pics it fits "quite" easily under the hood.

I would judge from those pics that someone didn't mind cutting the Volvo front crossmember.

---

Some quick Buick 215 measurements:

The distance from the bottom-most section of the pan to the flange is about 5.5", but that measurement is about seven inches back. For the first six inches, the depth dimension is only about 1". I laid on an oily concrete floor for those dimensions, so they might be off by a couple eighth-inches.

The distance from the block's bottom flange to the valley pan is smack on 10". (I have a spare block.)

The distance from the valley pan to the top of the highest spark plug wire's cap is about 7".

So... engine height above the crossmember = ~18" = ~457mm

I'd add about an inch for oil pan clearance and another inch for hood clearance...

---

The link Rob posted above (to the V8 Register) gave the Rover engine's height as 711mm. How might they have gotten that?

Assuming Buick 4-barrel manifold and Carter AFB or Edelbrock carburetor (which are dimensionally the same), the height from valley pan to air cleaner flange = ~7.5".

Better allow another 1.5" for an air cleaner...

From the very bottom of the pan to the top of the air cleaner: 5.5" + 10" + 7.5" + 1.5" = 24.5" = 622mm

In other words, I think the V8 Register's measurement (711mm) is inflated. Two reasons why it might be: later model Rover oil pans are a lot deeper than the Buick oilpan and also the common S.U. installations are kinda tall compared Buick/4bbl installations.

Much appreciated gentlemen..
A

Hey Andrew,
Hope you don't mind but I'll answer your PM questions here.
As far as the 2.3l engines go the best one is the b23 turbo engine from the 83/84 760 Volvos.
Use a cylinder head and cam from the earlier "E" motor and you've got a really strong base. 300 to 350 hp is a good goal for this engine.
If you're into mods the marine industry uses the 16 valve head on this block. With the European turbo manifold and some minor mods
400 hp is realistic. On spray 550 / 600 happens but the block starts to come apart.
B230 engines despite all the rumors are all basically the same. Bearing sizes and rods changed but they all break above 250 hp / 6500 rpm. Above this limit custom rods and pistons are needed. Period.
Turbos came in two flavours big and small. The garrets are the best stock turbo for power. Mitsubishi's are smaller and good for torque. You should upgrade in either case.
Distributor placement is variable. All 700s 85 and newer have it at the rear of the head. All 240s have it at the left front of the engine. By simply changing the intermediate shaft and distributor you can put a 700 engine distributor at the front of the engine. Parts from a 1976 to a 1992 240 engine will work.
Mega Squirt is an excellent choice if you're a competent tuner/builder.
SDS is very good for the average guy who doesn't want to spend every waking moment learning how to set up his system.
Keeping the B20 in your car and adding the SDS is probably the wisest choice. Looks stock, goes fast and gets collector insurance.
But these cars have missed out on the vintage price scale for some reason so keeping it stock doesn't make a big difference to it's value.
In the end it's your choice.
What I generally tell my customers is. Decide what it is that you want the car to do. Then we'll figure out a way to do that.
Otherwise the tail is waging the dog.
Cheers
Fred

It is possible to get serious HP from the B20 as a N/A, but how streetable it will be might be a subject for discussion. 500 HP or more with turbo is also achievable.
[i284.photobucket.com] is a dynoed full-race engine.
[i284.photobucket.com] is how the engine compartment looks like of the car with that engine.

It it not only the width of the BOPR that will pose a problem, but also the length. There is one P1800 in Sweden with a 215 in it that is an old build from the 70s. I have looked for a link to it, but so far not been successful, but will post it as soon as I find it. I am assuming the body is going to be unmodified.

As someone suggested the B234 is possible to fit in a P1800 and can get, when modified properly. to give over 300 HP. Volvo's M400 transmission will hold up to that too, but the bell housing has to be modified. A 4+overdrive is also available, but I do not think the overdrive itself can handle all that power. A lot of people are modifying the bell housing to fit BMW transmissions as well, with great success to be used with engines giving very high HP.

6K for 150 HP sounds a little expensive, unless you are doing complete rebuild. Fred has the right lead anyway. An alternative is to locate a Judson and supercharge the engine instead.

What year is your car? What are your goals with the car?

Maybe this can inspire you otherwise... very British indeed ;) [www.topgear.com] more information [www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2012 02:33AM by nalle.

[forums.swedespeed.com])

This guys been putting an LS1 in his. He's doing some cool stuff.