Engine and Transmission Tech

Curtis said "I've got a feeling something simple is wrong and you'll smack your forehead pretty hard when you find it"

So...........Double check to make sure you don't have #5 and #6 plug wires switched. IE #5 fires when #6 should and #6 fires when #5 should.

I double checked the firing order on Monday -- 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 so I'm good there.

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I also like Curtis' idea about putting the timing light on #5 -- that'd tell me the plug is getting voltage consistently -- not necessarily that the plug is firing, right?

No. A timing light can be very handy for finding a misfire. I've used a light to simply and quickly verify which cylinder a misfire is occurring on... you can put that inductive pick-up on any of the eight leads, or even on the coil lead for that matter. But the light will ONLY blink when there's a spark.

I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, but for most of my life I haven't owned a timing light. For years and years I set timing statically, and maybe tweaked it a little by ear. I only bought a light of my own when I wanted the dial-back feature... to verify the advance curve of a distributor. (Sure enough, the curve wasn't good.) I bring this up because I don't think Rob's symptoms point to timing per se. If I set his timing statically, I wouldn't expect his engine to miss. It might not make ultimate power, but it would behave nicely. Perhaps something is wonky and causing very erratic ignition timing. That's a different issue.

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Don't want to go on a tangent, but what would it take to convert a stock distributor to work with the MSD ignition -- is there a magnetic pick-up module that'd work?

I publish so many racecar articles... don't you read them? Probably better than half those vintage racecars have a Pertronix Ignitor module hidden inside their distributors, used in conjunction with an (often hidden) MSD box (or Lucas ignition amplifier). Lumenition's breakerless ignition module would work fine too.

This is a roller cam motor?

JB

Thanks Curtis - I didn't realize the light was sensing actual spark firing vs. just voltage on the line. That's great to know.

Educate me on dial back timing lights... don't think I need one. My balancer is marked from 0 to about 40 degrees... so I can see total timing at various RPM's without using a dial back. Aside from determining total timing when you don't have sufficient markings, what's the benefit of a dial back light over a regular one?

As for the vintage race car articles, I have to admit I skim them but don't read them. I'll have to start looking at them more closely though.

Yes Jim, roller cam motor.

That's good. The way it's acting it sounds like a wiped cam lobe but I don't think a roller cam would do that.

Jim

Is the only difference between a Motorcraft AGSP32C and a AGSF32C that the AGSP uses a washer and the AGSF seals w/o the washer? While I was out of town (w/o access to the car) I called Ford Racing to ask what plugs I should be using & the tech told me AGSP32C.

I also checked for spark on #5 - holding the plug to the engine, the spark looked strong, blue, & consistent. Same with the timing light on #5 with the plug back in the engine.

I rearranged the band clamps on the oval pipe today too. I'm confident they're probably still leaking some, but it's way better than it was -- at least I can't feel the exhaust coming from the clamps any more.

Going to let it cool & then replace the header bolts w/the locking ones - they came in today's mail -- and will double check to see whether timing bounces around at higher RPMs using a newer timing light.

Also, drained the radiator fluid & draining the oil so I can see what they look like too. More later tonight or tomorrow.

Oil looked fine. A bit darker than I'd have expected for as few miles were on it, but no signs of water or metal.

The radiator water on the other hand didn't look as good. When I drained it, I noticed it was discolored when it first came out (e.g. the water at the bottom of the radiator), then cleared up within a few seconds of draining. I let the tub sit over night & the radiator water looked pretty good - pretty clean & green. I knew whatever was in it must have settled so I poured off the top -- about a gallon & here's what was left.

I know it looks like oil in the picture, but doesn't look it in "real life"; more like either fine rust or maybe carbon -- although I'm not sure how to tell which? Unless there's a way to tell, I'm guessing the next step is to pull the head?




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 05:34PM by rficalora.

Rob, that's an iron block motor so you'll have some particulate in the coolant no matter how thoroughly you cleaned the block. I don't think that's anything to worry about.

Jim

Would it make sense for the cooling system to be pressurized after just a few minutes of running the engine? I ran it long enough to get the temp up to about 175 or 180 before draining the oil and drained the radiator at the same time. I was surprised that the radiator was under pressure - nothing excessive, but noticed it when I took the radiator drain plug out.

Absolutely normal Rob. Pressure builds up as your engine heats up. Your engine is near it's running temp and should be very close to your rad cap rating. The stuff in your coolant is also pretty normal. Rust from the block, corrosion from the heads and oils from assembly all accumulate to contaminate the coolant some.
Have you changed out the plugs yet?
Your timing light will still fire whether your plug is good or not, it just confirms that voltage is present. So don't count on that to confirm a good plug. I'm with Curtis I think your problem is going to be something simple.
If you are using one of the more popular stainless steel band clamps for your exhaust. Position it so that the aluminum block is on the short radius of your oval pipe. Lube the nuts and crank them down tight. Somewhere around 40ftlbs. You should see the stainless band deform to take on the shape of the joint. The aluminum block will do the same. If this is a butt joint it will be hard to seal perfectly but it can be done. A slip joint is much easier.
Good luck
Fred

Sounds like concensus is nothing wrong with the radiator water which means nothing is pointing to a bad intake or head gasket. That's good. I hadn't refilled the fluids because I was assuming the next step was going to be to pull the intake & heads. I'd read several posts on the mustang & factory five boards where apparently the Fel-Pro printo seal gaskets - especially intake gaskets - were failing & there's a replacement out that's been redesigned (steel core gasket) that supposedly holds up better. A few members of this board have had the intake gaskets fail & had luck with the updated gaskets. Also several posts talk about using RTV on both sides around the water passage openings on the gaskets which I didn't do.

I'll probably pull the intake & replace the gaskets for peace of mind - but, since I'll have to order them, I'm going to proceed with with trying to isolate the #5 problem assuming the gaskets are ok - at least till the new ones come in.

I did already turn the band clamps so the aluminum blocks are on the short radius & they are sealing better. I didn't do a smoke test or anything but I don't feel the exhaust at the clamps any more.

So, seems like the next step is reflill the fluids, replace #5 plug & retest.

Rob,
Re the RTV silicone. Don't do it!
Silicone is grossly overused and generally for the wrong purpose.
Gaskets these days are pretty high tech, and don't require any "help" in sealing. Proper prep and assembly is all that's needed.
Most gaskets have some form of sealant built into them and adding another product usually defeats that sealants ability to work.
I use the Felpro gaskets all the time. As in several times every day. And haven't run into sealing problems yet.
If the surfaces are clean and flat and the proper torque procedure is used they will work well for you.
If you need silicone to make it work then something is wrong and you should fix that problem first.
Cheers
Fred

X2

X3
I have been a mechanic for 30+ years(yes I am old) and you can usually tell how good a mechanic is as an inverse proportion to the amount of silicone he uses

Rob, Just try retorqueing the intake first and try your new plugs.

Actually, Jim, that idea hit me today. I re-torqued the intake and checked the heads after the first heat cycle but haven't touched them since. It also occurred to me that my torque wrench is at least 30yrs old & while it was a good brand (Snap On) and hasn't been used much in the past 20 or so, it's hasn't been calibrated in that time. So, I picked up a rental one today (my AutoZone says they send them out to have them re-calibrated on a regular schedule). I'm going to check both as well as replace just #5. My kids have scouts tomorrow night so it'll probably be Wednesday before I can do that.

As for the silicone, what do you guys make of these intake & head gasket instructions for Ford 302's from AFR's web site? [www.airflowresearch.com]

I would call that a blatantly irresponsible comment by AFR.
#1 why would you ever not torque a bolt when you have the opportunity? Torque specs are provided by the manufacturer for good reason. In particular this instance where the load is spread over such a large area. Doesn't it just make sense to have all the clamping forces the same over all the sealing surfaces? In this day and age of precision fasteners "just tighten it up by hand" doesn't cut it anymore. Pick up any engine assembly manual. Every bolt and nut has a torque spec.
#2 Read the instructions for any gasket installation. They all say tighten to manufactures recommendation. No manufacturer says tighten it up until it feels good. As well they all say do not use any coatings or sealants on the gasket and apply to a clean properly prepared surface. I would be inclined to follow the guy who makes millions of gaskets rather than the guy who makes a few heads. Possibly the tighten by hand recommendation leads to the need for the silicone use.
Cheers
Fred

Rob, just for reference sake, Ford Racing recommends intake gasket M-9439-A50 for use with GT40 alum heads - the cheaper alternative is Felpro #1262S3 - both are steel backed Print-O-Seal gaskets.
If you decide on gasket replacement, do not use supplemental silicone on the head faces but certainly use at the front and back seal to gasket joints (as per Felpro instructions).
You should also instal 4 threaded rods to guide the intake manifold as it is lowered onto the cyl heads - this prevents distortion of the print-o-seal. If you don't use the guide rods, you'll risk seal damage and potential leakage.