Engine and Transmission Tech

Hi, my name is Jeff and I am writing in from Utah. I have never used a message board before, so forgive me if I do not know what I am doing! I have a 1978 MGB that I have been converting to a Rover V8 over the last couple of years. I have encountered an issue which I am looking for advice on. Here is what I have: 1997 Rover 4.0, Buick 215 front timing cover, D & D high volume oil pump, Buick Metric pump cover, remote oil filter on 1/2 inch ID lines. I broke the engine down and replaced the rings, main bearings, big end bearings, lifters and the cam. The engine started well and ran total for about an hour before the issues developed. Here is the problem, at idle, the oil pressure runs about 50 psi. As you increase the rpm's, the oil pressure rises also. I goes up to 100 psi at around 3200 rpm's. I have not taken the engine over this due total fear! After the engine has run for 5 minutes or so, I start to hear a lite clicking noise coming from the front timing cover. It is about 2 clicks per second. At this point the oil pressure starts to drop to less than 10 psi at all rpm range. I shut the engine down immediately at this time.

This winter I found a much better looking timing cover to replace my slightly battered one. I also replaced the oil pump, making sure I followed all directions to the letter. When I completed these alterations last week, the oil pressure issue had not changed at all. I am wondering if anyone has any ideas on this, or had the same problem. I would really like to get the car running this season.
Thanks for your help

Sounds like your bypass valve may be sticking. That is in the lower cover for the oil pump. There is a "Tadpole" plunger available for it, I've not used one but it is claimed to eliminate the sticking problem.

Jim

Thanks Jim,
I am new to engine building so bear with me. I used the orange spring in the bypass (40 psi) and I fit the spring into the valve male to female. When the Metric cover is not attached to the timing cover how should the valve be oriented? The valve itself has cut outs in it, should you be able to see those, or should the solid side of the valve be visible looking from the inside of the metric cover?

Not so sure about the metric cover, can you post a photo?

I am going to be away from a computer over my weekend, but I can try to post a photo on Tuesday when I return to work. It is the Buick Metric cover that is in the book on converting your car to a V8. Something like "How to give your MGB V8 Power". The cover was used on a variety of GM cars in the 70's and 80's. It changes the angle of the oil filter location to a better angle.

Agree that the first thought would be pressure relief valve is sticking.
I think RPI have the tadpole type valve.
[www.v8engines.com]

The oil pump is driven by the distributor drive gear. The ticking noise could be the gear breaking up due to overload, or the drive pin.

When you say you changed the oil pump, was that the gears, or also the bottom cover, or did you keep the same bottom cover & valve. If so, that would explain why the problem is still there.

You might also check/change the oil filter. I have had poor oil pressure from some filters. Currently I have a Wix WL7117 which is fine.

Ivor

Did some research a couple years ago...WIX was rated the best oil filter....NAPA gold is a WIX filter...

Here is some more information from the high pressure situation. I changed out all of the oil pump components with new except for the used 215 cover. New gears (longer ones), new gear spacer plate, new metric cover, new relief valve and spring. I have a NAPA Gold 1068 filter on the remote filter hanger. I pulled the pressure relief valve yesterday to check its movement. It came right out after I pulled the spring. Was not stuck at all
I am wondering about the actual valve/plunger that the spring retains to a pre-set pressure. It has an oblong cut out in each side of it. Do these cut outs have to be aligned with the access port at the bottom of the pump gears, or should a solid shaft be visible?

I started the car yesterday after checking the relief valve and had the same high pressure issue

Just a WAG but,
double check your remote oil filter lines Jeffrey.
If they are reversed the filter won't flow any oil and gives you astronomical oil pressures.
The engine is clicking because it doesn't see any oil.
Hope it's something that easy.
Cheers
Fred

Thanks Fred,
I tried switching the lines to the remote oil filter last night with no discernible difference in oil pressure noted. I then bypassed the filter totally by coupling the lines together. Same results, pressure up to 100 psi as the engine is revved.
What could be blocking oil flow inside of the engine? Or could it be an problem with the oil pick up tube in the oil pan? I have the stock tube and oil pan that came with the engine. I am wondering if something, somehow fell in the pan and is getting stuck against the tube screen?

It's not the pick up. Maybe you have a blockage in the main pressure galley somehow. The extended gears are generally more harm than good but unless the bearing clearances are very tight would not account for what you are seeing. You might pull a valve cover and check for adequate oiling of the top end. If it's dry up there you have a blockage.

Jim

I agree, the pickup can't cause a high pressure problem.
And even a blockage in the engine shouldn't be able to cause that much pressure as the pressure is regulated at the pump itself.
If the filter lines and the adapter are good then it really just leaves the pressure regulator and it's spring.
Just to go through in a reasonably logical order.
Have you tried another oil pressure gauge?
If it's electric try another sender as well and confirm that the wiring and voltages are sound.
Or better, try a mechanical one.
Is the plunger in the right way around?
It has a cup shape to it and the flat end goes in first followed by the spring which fits inside the cup by 3/4 inch.
No alignment of flats or anything like that is needed.
The plunger needs to move freely with no restriction at all.
The stock spring is 0.400" dia. by 3.050" long with a wire dia. of 0.040"
That will give all the oil pressure that you need.
Do the new gears have enough end float?
If not they can push hard enough on the housing to pinch the regulator and jam it.
That could also explain the clicking and the seemingly contradictory loss of oil pressure when hot.
If none of this resolves the problem. Then we'll try some other form of magic.

Cheers
Fred

Thanks for the advice guys!
I do have the plunger in the correct way then. Cup side towards the spring with the spring seated inside of the cup. My spring that I used is the "orange one the is set for around 40 psi. It is not anywhere near 3 inches long. 2.25 or so. I will look and see if I have the bolts that hold the pump cover on torqued to tightly. They are set with 10 foot pounds, but maybe I over tightened. The plunger does slip out easily when I pull the 1 inch spring retaining cap. Would it only tighten up when the pump is actually spinning?

I have ran a second mechanical gauge. It is reading within 5 lbs of the MGB gauge. High at first, then low

Thought of another potential problem to look at last night. Is it possible that the distributor is pressing too tightly against the oil pump drive shaft? If so, that could be causing an issue with the end float. Has anyone ever heard of that before?

Here is what has happened over the last week. I pulled everything, up to and including the front timing cover, from the engine. Using a soft piece of wire, I probed both oil passageways on the block. I was able to run in each one at least 7 inches till hitting a bend. I replaced the gasket located between the spacer plate and the Metric cover with a stock Buick 215 one. With the standard gasket I could detect no end float on the oil pump gears. The remote oil filter adapter was replaced on the engine with a unit from D & D. I was worried my off the shelf unit was defective. I insured the the bypass plunger moved freely before the distro was installed. Everything was put back together for starting. The engine turned over fine and started well. Of course, the oil pressure was exactly the same. Good pressure at low idle, with it increasing as the rpm's increased. I think I could have hit 100 psi if I kept heading towards 4000.

So I am looking for any ideas, no matter how basic seeming. This is the first time I have ever built an engine. So what seems like a basic thing to you, will probably not be to me. I started this conversion 2.5 years ago, so this is issue is really getting to me. I looked forward to the day when I can take the MG out for real!

Thanks for any help/

I remember something about differences/compatibility between 1979 and down/1980 and up oil pumps. If using a booster plate the relief valve won't work. I think you have to line up and drill a hole. I have the old Kenne Bell instructions I will put on here that might explain it better. Actually the first paragraph answers your problem, you need the longer spring Fred mentioned for the 215 cover/oil pump. Newer Metric uses shorter spring. Bet that fixes the problem.





Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2014 03:42PM by mgb260.

Thanks Jim for the advice. I will try switching out a longer spring tonight.
One more question for you-how do I know what year my Metric cover is? I purchased a reproduction from D & D, so not sure what year it is modeled after.

Jeff, 80 and up is Metric. It may not be just the spring. You also have to have the gasket with rectangular hole(bottom left pic) in it and make a 1/4" deep 1/2" wide channel (pic above the bottom left) to connect the gasket hole to the larger port if you have the booster plate. Keep us posted on the results as it may help others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2014 06:55PM by mgb260.

Hi Jim and crew,
I was able to check the instructions you posted, and realized we are talking about two different options. I do not have the booster plate, I have the plate installed that allows for the deeper or longer oil pump gears to be fitted to the 215 timing cover. It is basically a spacer plate with holes around the edge that allow for oil passage. It is listed as a K-201HV Kit-O/P Repair purchased from D & D. This AM I did try replacing the orange pressure relief spring with a longer one. Not successful. The engine fired immediately, but at idle the pressure was at 95 psi. I quickly shut it down and re-installed the orange spring (which is supposed to be set for 40 psi). So please, more suggestions! It has been rainy and cool here but the warm temps are on the way.

Does everyone agree that a NAPA Gold 1068 is a good filter to use on a remote mount

Jeff, Can you post a picture of it. You may have to still make that channel between the gasket hole and larger inlet hole. Do you still have the stock gears so you can try it without the spacer?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2014 08:38PM by mgb260.