Engine and Transmission Tech

Thanks Bill, you're a godsend. I probably won't get much done on it over the winter, and I realize this is bad timing, but in winter I do poorly on thought-intensive jobs like this. Still, just to get started on it, do you think you could send me the files you used to make your setup work? Maybe from that I can tell enough about it to make some progress, so that by next spring when I need it I might be a little more familiar with what I'm doing. I'd hate to have to do this kind of work for a living, it'd make me old before my time.

JB

No prob Jim, go ahead and PM me your e-mail address and I'll attach the modified ini file for the I/O Logger board.
I was trying to attach it to this post, however it wouldn't allow the file. Should work through e-mail ok though.

The way that I have it set up now, it even works as a stand alone EGT/MAP/RPM/VSS data-logger. It doesn't require a Mega-squirt ECU to function, just Tuner Studio down loaded into your computer.

Bill

Attached is a snap shot of Mega-log viewer. The top graph is RPM, MAP sensor, and Vehicle speed. Below are the 8 EGT readings. In this case, it was a free-rev in the shop, I hope to get some data-logs of the I/O Logger while driving as well. If it would ever stop raining, so I could get some traction:-)
The EGTs are closer together at higher RPM/engine loads, with them seperating under decell conditions. When I switch to MSIII I should be able to even the temps a little more under low load conditions, by utilizing the injector trim tables.

Bill




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2010 12:08AM by MG four six eight.

That's pretty cool. I sent Lance some of the info I dug up on the Lexus transmission I'm using and he's working on making the MegaShift (based on the General Purpose Input Output board) work with it, which would be great as it interfaces with the MS-II using CAN bus. That means a more complex GUI of course, so I've got my work cut out for me. I guess if I wanted to I could add a second GPIO for egt inputs like you have but it's enough of a challenge already. As it is I'm going to have to go to a digital speedo.

JB

Jim
I think once you go to a digital speedometer you'll like it. The VDO unit I have will read the VSS sensor signal straight from the sensor and is calibrated with a push of a button. It's the first acurate speedo I've ever had in a MG!

Attached is a couple more data-log snap-shots during a road test. The top graph is again MAP/boost, RPM and VSS, with the bottom three being EGT readings.
The EGT spread gets nice and tight together as engine load increases (boost conditions) then spreads somewhat when I let off the throttle. Also during light load/throttle cruise conditions. When I switch over to MSIII I will concentrate some of my tuning efforts in these areas to see if I can get the EGTs closer together. Although they are closer together then I thought they would be.
The MAP peaks are during a WOT aceleration run at 162 kpa or 9 psi of boost. It was interesting for me to see how quickly the supercharger builds boost at a fairly low rpm :-)
The bottom snap-shot is the same run only instead of VSS it shows the acelerometer reading (the squiggily red line). I will use this data to compare full throttle performance between the two different ECUs.

Bill





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2010 11:49PM by MG four six eight.

I received the componets to upgrade my MSII to MSIII/MS3X.
Below are some more pics, one photo shows MSII daughter board on the left and the larger MSIII daughter board on the right. The daughter board contains the processor which is basically the "brains" of the ECU. The MSIII board also contains a SD card reader as well. The idea is to be able to data-log a road test to the SD card so that you don't always need to have a laptop connected if want record data.
Another photo shows the MS3X expander board. This board is used for fully sequential fuel injection, or it can be used for coil on plug (COP) ignition as well. The 3X board has 8 high output driver's, one for each injector and the injectors will be connected to the 3X board BD37 pin connector. Instead of the main MS mother board DB37 pin connector when "batch fire" injection is used.
Other planned mods to the MS mother board include, installing jumpers for CAN communication, adding a baro sensor for constant barometric correction, and adding a circuit for knock sensor input.
The black case is the new larger housing that is required to fit all this added "stuff" in to the box!

Bill

Notice the MSIII board contains a much larger processor!

The white ribbon strips are used to connect the 3X board to the MSIII daughter board.




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2011 12:09AM by MG four six eight.

Nice looking hardware. I guess that explains what the guys have been working on.

JB

Jim M. and clan. I spoke with "Turbo City",(your picture).. They used GM's 2bbl/down drafts, rated 520 cfm@ 3"hg.87'-95'on sbc's.Used GM controller # 7747,re-programmed.Seems like(2) of these should, should feed a 5.7L hemi adequately, with Edlelbrock, dual plane, dual quad set-up. Anybody ? Thanks, Art.

Hey Art,

Check out the Chevy 454 truck/motorhome/marine TBI units.
Have also bored them out and used Holley spread bore butterflies. Gets you into the 690 range if you space the injectors.
Also check out Moates.net for chip burning stuff. You can make the GM ECU stand on its head and shoot watermellon seeds if you want to.

Cheers
Fred

Quite interestingly, I've been through (4) additional companies,since "Moates", regarding this seemingly impossible concept. No definative answers-yet. roverman.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2011 02:52PM by roverman.

Some more updates.
While the ECU was apart I decided to add some additional features. Such as a second MAP sensor for constant BARO correction, knock sensor input, and connected the CAN circuits so the ECU and EGT module can comunicate with each other.
The knock sensor system is a bit of an experiment on my part since knock sensors were never used on 215 Buicks. Knock sensors put out a specific frequency that has to be read by a knock module or the ECU. I thought about using Rover knock sensors, however they're signal is sent directly to the ECU. Since the Mega Squirt ECU cannot read a direct knock sensor signal, I decided to use GM knock sensors and a GM knock module.
With the GM knock system the sensor sends it's signal to a knock module. Then the knock module sends a simple 0-7volt signal to the ECU, which indiacates a "yes or no" for knock detected.
One of the main factors for knock frequency is bore size. So I decided to go with a 2.8 L V6 knock sensor(s) and module, because the 2.8L has the same bore size as a 215 V8. Not sure how the aluminum versus iron block will work out, but it may require some experimenting with different sensors!
I installed 2 knock sensors, one in each bank at the coolant drain plug fittings. Also I wired them seperately, so that I could dis-connect one or the other if it turns out that I'm getting a "false knock" signal.

Bill

The purple wires are the jumpers to connect the CAN comm to the ECU main connector.
The black pointer shows the "proto area" where additional circuits can be added by the user for additional features. In this case a zenier diode, resistors, and jumper wires were added for the BARO sensor and knock sensor input from a GM knock module.

This view shows the two MAP sensors. The one on the right is the original sensor and is used as MAP sensor. The sensor on the left is the added in BARO sensor. Also shown is the 1/2 watt 1K ohmn resistor required for BARO input.

Comparison view between the MSII case on the left and the new larger MSIII case on the right.

Assembled MSIII unit.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2011 01:00AM by MG four six eight.

I have the car up and running on MSIII now:-) Still have some tuning to do (bad weather limits tuning days) however I have it very close already with just some fine tuning to do. Probably will play around with some of the settings just for the heck of it also!
Some observations so far.

1, The live tuning feature in tuner studio is really easy to use! Basically auto-tunes the VE table while you drive, which saves quite a bit of time when tuning the VE table.

2 Fully sequential injection has cleaned up the idle. Before when I had it batch fired I had to run a fairly rich idle mixture (around 13 to 1) in order to get a smooth idle. Now with sequential it idles smoothly at 14 to 1 for less exhaust odor! I suspect that it may get a little better fuel mileage as well. (haven't checked it yet)

3 VE table is adjustable to .1% instead of 1%. I noticed the most improvement in the 1500-2000 rpm range under very light throttle. Because of the very light load, this area is usually difficult to tune in that 1% up or down makes a pretty big difference in AFR. By being able to adjust a tenth of a percent at a time, its easier for auto-tune to dail into the correct air/fuel ratio.

4 Individual trim tables are working as advertised, using the EGT's I have been able to tune the different cylinders at various rpm/load levels. Still fine tuning this area, so far the results have been promising though.
Since all injectors can flow at slightly different rates at times, I'll probably send them in for cleaning and flow testing just so I know where each one is at for fuel flow. Then using the EGT data to "blue print" the injectors to the engine by installing the richer injectors in the leaner cylinders and visa-versa.

5 Auto-tune (closed loop operation) works much better (no surging) with the faster processor!

Overall I'm very please with the upgrade! While the MSII works pretty good, MSIII is definately better in almost every way. Kinda like comparing a computer built in the early to mid 90's to one that was made last year.

Bill

Good stuff Bill! It's great to hear the autotune works so well, I never had much success with it in the earlier units but I didn't give it that much of a chance. It'll likely be mid summer before my car is back on the road but I'm definitely going to take a good look at this setup. I have to add the GPIO board for transmission control and it might be time to upgrade the engine controller as well.

JB

Jim

Yeah I had limited sucess with auto-tune with the old ECU as well. It kinda worked, but in the end it was easier to just turn off auto-tune and tune it manually.
I suspect that it works so well now because of the faster processor. Also when it's doing it's thing, it is making the changes 1/10th of a percent at a time, instead of over-shooting and "hunting back and fourth" trying to find the correct air/fuel ratio.

I have CAN up and running between the two modules now. Up to this point I had been using USB to talk to the I/O board and using the standard DB 9 cable to talk to MSIII, then opening tuner studio twice in the lap top. With CAN I can read both modules through MSIII now, although I still need to change some of the MSIII CAN settings so that the EGT readings are the same as when viewing them directly from the I/O board though.

Bill



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2011 01:00AM by MG four six eight.

That sounds really good. If I do this right I'll have to run two GPIO boards, one like your setup and one for the transmission. At a couple bills each plus the MSIII that's beginning to get pricey. But, it should work the same as your system using the CANbus and both I/O boards should show up. As you're the trailblazer on that, did you have any sort of difficulties getting it to work that way? In the past the MS stuff has been pretty robust but I'll be wading in pretty deep this time and I'm a little anxious about that. Is there a particular person at JB Performance who is especially familiar with your system? It sounds like my best bet might be to duplicate what you've done and then add the 2nd extender board for the tranny. If there is an unused output on your GPIO that could also simplify things as I'm pushing it to get enough outputs for the tranny solenoids.

I was wondering though, and you probably already posted the info, what was the best thing you found for EGT probes and what did you use for bungs? Some sort of short thermocouple-in-a-stainless-tube? Those couldn't have been cheap either.

I've been sidetracked with building my office space to the point where I've gotten nearly nothing done on the car over the winter. It's about time to get off my butt and get it back in gear. Header mods are pretty high on the to-do list. Plus if I go this route that may push the completion date back to the fall. But I like the results you've gotten with autotune and think this approach has some real potential. Looks like I'd better finish cutting down the seat foams in Edith's TR7 so I'll have something decent to drive this summer.

JB

I did have several questions building and setting it all up. Jean the owner of JBperf is very helpful for when I couldn't firgure things out. He has a web site/forum just for his products [forum.jbperf.com]. Also there are other users who post helpful imformation on there as well.

For probes I used these [www.thesensorconnection.net] Price wasn't to bad for EGTs, they provide technical data on them and they're American made! I know some guys have tried cheaper probes, but have had limited sucess with them ie inconsistant readings. I figured it's better to buy good ones, it's the whole "garbage in garbage out" thing! They came with screw-in SS bungs, I just ground the threads off and had them TIG welded in to the headers.

For the EGT's and I/O extender, I think I'm in it for just under $800. Spendy for sure, nice thing is that communicates with MSIII. Other 8 EGT systems I looked at were over $1000 and are stand alone only, where as the JBperf unit is both stand alone and CAN!
One of the side benefits of having CAN, is that MSIII can be programed to monitor EGT and if the exhaust temp reaches to high of a temp MSIII can add fuel to cool the combustion chambers down. It's an engine safety system that the tuner can use when he/she has EGTs. Looking though the settings the user sets up the perameters for exh temp, how much fuel is added,etc. I haven't activated this feature yet though.

Bill

Sounds good Bill, I have a single stand alone EGT on the opposite pipe from the wideband and used it to tune afr and timing quite effectively. Between the egt and the coolant temp I was able to get a real good idea of how far I could push it without adding too much heat. This would be even better.

Funny you know, this car was originally a very low budget performance car, and I mean low. You'd be amazed at how much money I didn't spend to do the original conversion back in the early 80's. The last few years though it's been getting downright spendy. So once I get it back on the road this time I think I'm going to just plan on driving the wheels off it. I guess that means I ought to spend what I have to to make it right, within reason, and this control system really looks to me like the way to go. I should be able to recover a little money by selling off the MSII systems I have now, that should ease the pain a little.

JB

Yeah, I was on the fence about whether to get a complete MSIII unit or get the parts/pieces to upgrade the MSII into a MSIII. I thought about selling the MSII or even keeping it for use in another car. In the end I decided to go the upgrade route, since I wasn't sure what I could sell the MSII for. It's probably pretty close to the same cost either way.

Bill

I'm not up to speed on the MSIII stuff yet Bill, as I was running MSII v 3 on both of my controllers. But it sounds like there may be some new features that make the newer one desirable and I would then have 2 extra controllers, both with the newer processor daughterboard, one of which has a knock sensor circuit. Probably have to stand on my head and rewire the main connector again. Well, I don't suppose it's a decision anyone can make for me and I'll just have to dive in and figure it out for myself, but it's not a process I especially enjoy so that and transmission control will very likely be the last step in the upgrade process and I'll put it off as long as I can.

I see where the MSIII has only been out for maybe a year. That explains why I didn't know anything about it. Last I heard the next new thing in the works was the UltraMegaSquirt which was supposed to have sequential plus stuff like ion based knock sensing. My impression of it was that it had sort of stalled out. So now there's MSIII which sounds maybe like another intermediate step? Also I'd noted that they had shifted a lot towards SMDs (surface mounted devices) which meant that building the boards was no longer an option and the prices were going up. Did that trend continue in the MSIII?

JB

Jim

You can still buy the MSIII as a kit, I think the daughter board and the optional 3X board are SMD only. Looks like the user can still build the main board though.
Not sure if they are looking past MSIII yet, it has more features then most guys would probably ever use. I have a feeling that they will stay with MSIII for awhile since it's so new.
With electronics you never know when it will stop, kind of boggles the mind:-)

Bill