Engine and Transmission Tech

It certainly does. What doe the 3X board do?

JB

The 3X board is for fully sequential injection, also will do COP ignition. Also has lots of extra inputs/outputs for all sorts of stuff! [www.msextra.com]
About half way down the page is the externial wiring diagram for the 3X DB 37 connector.
Bill

OK, so you're running the MS3 controller plus the 3X board for sequential (plus it will run COP) plus another GPIO board for the EGT inputs, and then I'd need a second GPIO for transmission control. Does that sound about right? Then I see where your EGT probes cost $50 each. Did they give any quantity discount or did you have to pony up the full $400?

The tab for all that will add up, no doubt about that. But selling my two MS-II controllers should help. Luckily I have a full set of COP coils on the shelf if I decide to upgrade from EDIS. What did you have to change to get the MS3 to work with the MS2 wiring harness?

JB

Yes that is correct, no discount on the EGT's though (I asked). I wasn't sure if I wanted to spend that much coin for EGTs, but I figured with "non-standard" engine combinations such as ours, the information they provide is very useful. Makes it easier to optimize the combination, I'm hoping for a slight fuel mileage increase for when I'm just putting around town as well.
I haven't checked the fuel mileage yet, the car is on the hoist now. I'm fixing some oil leaks to get it ready for the drive to Reno this summer.

For wiring you can leave probably 90% of the wiring the same as it is now on your BD37. My old DB37 didn't have all of the terminals in it and I needed to add some wires for CAN. Since I had to replaced my main DB37 connector in order to add the CAN circuits, I went ahead and changed the rest of the pin-outs (mostly grounds) to match the MSIII diagram. Mainly just to simplify things.

Bill



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2011 11:42PM by MG four six eight.

OK that helps. Thanks Bill. Maybe I can do this in stages. My MG started out as a low budget build but it's been gradually getting ever more expensive. At some point I'll need to reign in the costs. But, as one of our friends is fond of saying, "It'd be a shame to spoil the car for want of a few dollars..." and we all know where that line of thought leads. I'll have to decide whether to get the controls or the sensors first. Maybe I should just install the bungs for now.

JB

I found out my existing MS v3.0 motherboard will work just fine with the MS3 daughterboard, which replaces the MS2 v3.01 daughterboard I have in the controller right now. That will give me the capabilities to run COP, sequential, EGT inputs, and datalog to a removable SD card. To get the COP and sequential outputs I'll need the MS3X extender board, and to use the EGT inputs I'll need either the JBPerformance IO-X card or a GPIO. Then I need a GPIO to run MegaShift to control the transmission, and it all gets linked together via the CANbus. Finally, I will need a new case large enough to house all of this. I should be able to sell my MS v2.2 motherboard and enclosure, as well as my other MS2 v3.01 card and my earlier MS2 v 2.0 card. My MS1 processor can go with the motherboard. So that should bring in a few bucks to help offset the cost a little. As soon as I understand the IO-X better the plan will be firmed up and I can start putting it into action.

Bill, I want to thank you for the friendly advice and assistance. You've made this process so much easier for me.

JB

Your welcome Jim! You'll have to keep us posted on how it's coming along for you.

Bill, did you go to COP? If you did, what did you use for coil drivers?

JB

Jim

I'm still running EDIS. I have a COP set-up from a 5.3L Chevy PU that I was thinking about using at one time. The EDIS has been trouble free for me, so I figured that I would stay with it for the time being.

Bill

I'm still sorting this out. If I use everything I'm considering it'll be pretty complex. But I have a new set of ACCEL COP coils that would look good alongside the Rover valve covers. They are 2 wire coils though so they need drivers, unlike the LS1 coils which are logic level and can be driven directly by the outputs of the MSX driver board.

My MS v3.0 mainboard will have several heat sink slots open after changing to MS3, perhaps 6 or more. So I'm looking at the possibility of adding coil drivers inside the case. I've begun a spreadsheet with pin assignments for the various boards, but there is now so much material out there that finding just the pin assignment information is not all that easy. Plus the MS3 hasn't been out long enough for the manual to be completed and the situation seems to be about the same for the IO-X board. I'll stay on it though and try to find a good place to upload the spreadsheet when it's finished.

JB

It's been awhile since I have posted so I figured it was time for an update. I'm very pleased with the MS3 and Jb perf logger board!
Tuning with the EGTs has been VERY helpfull, as it allows me to see whats going on at all rpm/engine load ranges.
A couple of things I've learned about tuning with EGT's.
1) Hotter temps usualy means leaner fuel mixture or retarded ignition timing.
Colder temps Usualy means richer fuel mixture or advanced/proper ignition timing (no detenation)
There are exceptions to the above however for example.
If the fuel mixture is to lean. A lean miss-fire can occur and actually drop the EGT reading, due to the un-burnt fuel mixture cooling down the exhaust.
If the air/fuel ratio is very rich, it can cause the EGT readings to go higher. This is because "the fire" is still burning fuel as it leaves the exhaust port.
If the EGT probes are placed to close to the exhaust port the readings with be hotter and visa-versa. The main thing is to have all of the probes equal distance from the exhaust ports.
Miss-fires can really throw off your readings much in the same way miss-fires effect oxygen sensors. Basically what a miss-fire does is make the oxygen sensor and EGT sensor read the opposite of whats really going on.
Since no two engines are going to run the same EGT temp at a given air/fuel ratio. It's very helpfull to have a good wide band O2 sensor set-up to know where your at air/fuel ratio wise.
For example, at WOT under 9 pounds of boost the EGT readings average around 1235-1250* F with an air fuel ratio of 12 to 1.
I also have seen the same 1235-1250* F readings at a lean higher rpm cruise with 14.7 to 15.7 air/fuel ratio. Same temp readings but at vastly different air/fuel ratio mixtures/engine loads.
Attach below are some screen shots of data logs.
The first one is a link to screen shot while the car was running on MS2
[forum.britishv8.org]

Above is a snap shot after the switch to MS3 and after I did some tuning with the injector trim tables. Notice how much closer the EGT temp reading are. All 8 cylinders are there and they appear to be almost one line!

I had the ignition timing table set fairly conservative mainly because I didn't want to risk detonation. With an accelerometer (inside the JBperf module) and EGTs I decided to play around with the ignition timing some for a couple of reasons.
1) Using the accelerometer see if I could gain some more HP.
2) Using the EGTs see if the exhaust temps dropped when advancing the timing.
Below shows a snap shots during a 3000 4th gear low load lean cruise.


Notice on the bottom graph the EGT temps dropped on average about 60*F, by simply advancing the timing 2* in this area. The idea is to slowly advance the timing a little at a time until there is no change in EGT temp. The bottom squiggly line is air/fuel ratio. For this tuing method to be acturate, the air fuel ratio must be the same in all test runs. I still may do some more timing tuning in this area, just to see if I can lower the temps more.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2011 03:17AM by MG four six eight.

Now it was time to move on to some more WOT pull timing tuning. I wanted to be very carefull with this, because if there was detonation I would not be able to hear it over the blower whine!
Looking at the accelerometer data in the snap shots below, notice how the reading starts to trail off at about 4000 RPM. Most of this is because of the increased wind resistance (car is moving faster). However I had the timing pretty conservative in this area, I decided to leave the timing below 4000 RPM alone and advance it 2* at 4000 RPM with it slowly increasing by 4* at 6000 RPM.
The top graph is the before and the lower one after advancing the timing. Notice how the accelerometer reading stays higher longer. Additionally the seat of the pants acceleration felt stronger and the EGT readings dropped another 40* F as well.

Looking good Bill. I'm still dealing with fabrication issues but all of this will be relevant soon enough. What are you using for an accelerometer?

I'm getting set up to coat my headers here. Went ahead and installed egt ports in each runner but they will probably be plugged initially, I still have the dash EGT with a probe in one collector.

JB

Jim

The accelerometer is a surface mounted unit, located in the JBperformance module. Accelerometer data can read directly from the JB board via a laptop, or through MS3 via the CAN communication line.

Bill

I had to do some fuel supply system repairs. On our way back from Reno we stopped at a park in Northern California, and my wife commented that she smelled gas. I smelled it too and got out to check the car over, to find fuel dripping from remote fuel cell at a rapid rate! After closer inspection I could see that it was leaking from one of the welds. Fortunately a fellow MG'er had some JB weld, so I pulled the tank, gobbed a bunch of JB weld over the welded area and let it sit over-night.
Got up the next morning and it wasn't leaking! I told my wife, we better head for home ASAP since I wasn't sure how long the JB Weld would hold. It was just starting to seep again by the time we got home.
Anyway I decided to eliminate the remote fuel cell and install the fuel pump in the tank.

Donor fuel tank from out of a 98 oldsmobile. I picked this tank because of the nice flat area around the fuel pump mount. I cut out the fuel pump mount and soldered it to a stock MGB tank. Unfortunately I didn't take very many pics. It did require quite a bit of hammer/dolly work to get a nice fit on the MGB tank though. Due to the "raised areas " in the MGB tank.

A 6" hole saw was used to cut the hole in the trunk floor.

Stainless braided hoses and wiring in place. I reused my Astro van fuel pump, although I had to do quite a few modifications to it in order for it the compress short enough to fit in the MGB tank.

Then welded up this cover out of sheet metal and covered it with carpet

Hers a pic with the carpet back in and everything all buttoned back up!


A pic of my temporary roadside repair!

I'm thinking about converting the tank into a tool box. It should make a nice heavy duty "battery box" tool storage area.

Bill



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2011 12:44AM by MG four six eight.