MG Sports Cars

Max, I finally contacted Jeff who responded that it was set up to run manifold vacuum with 16 degrees of initial advance, so Steve could probably add in some more but getting the car to run with the hose unhooked to time it seems to be something of an issue. We'll probably get there eventually, but we don't really have a benchmark for what the engine wants due to the cam and the alloy heads and intake. In the meantime it looks like we're in the zone. Too bad we didn't get it on that dyno but them's the breaks.

I got a response from a Hagerty agent today and wrote back. He forwarded my post to their sponsorship guy and to McKeel so we'll see what happens but he really felt, after talking to his underwriter, that a commercial policy might be the best way to go. I have absolutely no experience and zero contacts with commercial insurance people so somebody else needs to step up here and take the reins to at least open a dialog. I would be completely shooting blind. Once we have a contact or two I don't mind negotiating the policy, but I'm completely clueless as to who to contact.

JB

Jim:

Good friend of mine's wife is a muckity-muck at an Insurance company (obviously here in NC). I could try sending out a feeler email, just to see what advice she'd give on how we should proceed and what to look for? I'm clueless like you....


RE: distributor. I've curved it: It won't work with manifold. You got 20 mechanical and 20 vacuum. If you time at zero and do manifold, you get 20 idle and 40 cruising but only 20 WOT. If you time at 15 you'll get 35 idle (!!), but also 35 WOT and 55 cruising. What is working well for Steve just idling and driving around will be WAY retarded when he goes Wide Open Throttle!

You need more mechanical if you want to run manifold. Like 30 degrees in the weights.

IF Steve got it to stop running off the primaries then I would go 15 idle, PORTED. This would give 15, 35, 55. That struck me as a ported curve, for just those reasons. Any other car would love those timing points.

Apparently it doesn't like 15 idle.... I wonder why. (Scientifically, you don't need more than 18 @ idle. Big cam, lowered vacuum is probably making it a little harder to get the mix in and light it off.)

M

Rethinking......

Okay, COMPROMISE setting could be this:

Time at 10 (where does Schlemmer get his 16 initial with MANIFOLD? That's 36 degrees at idle, and the damn thing likely only wants 33 full!)

Hook up manifold port-- now we're 30. (Vacuum unit starts pulling at 10", all in at 15"-- engine pulls 16" at idle).

This will give 30 WOT (our minimum) and also 50 cruising-- not bad.

So... hook up that other fan (!) and maybe it can survive 30 degrees of idle timing.

I think that's the only way you can try to get that distributor to work with manifold vacuum.

As you say, with ported the issue seems to be that it doesn't idle with 15 deg mechanical timing. (And that's a different issue.)

M

"In general, a modified BBB will like between 30 and 36* total advance, and 12* plus initial." - Larry70GS "The Wizard"

If there is an actual 20* of mechanical then we should have 10-16* initial. Max, at what RPM is the mechanical all in?

It really depends on what the car likes. At idle it will probably like about 24* There is no way to get that with ported vacuum and still be in the right range at WOT, so manifold vacuum will be needed. However 20* of vacuum advance seems high on both ends but we can't really say without knowing where the engine is happiest. One advantage of using manifold vacuum is that it should automatically retard the timing when cranking, for easier starts. Jeff mentioned that big engines tend to use manifold vacuum and smaller ones ported, perhaps this is why.

What I've seen recommended is to set initial so the engine runs best, (which will also let the idle speed screws be backed down off the transfer slots and allow adjustment of the mixture screws) and then make full throttle runs and set the mechanical advance just below pinging. (Or adjust the base timing for ping and then check initial to see how far it is from what the engine likes and correct the mechanical with bushings for total and springs for rate.) If that can be done without any vacuum then ported vacuum can be used and set for around 50 total advance. (will require about 10* of mechanical) If it cannot be done (which seems to be the case here) then manifold vacuum is used to get good idle timing and a compromise is made between total timing and idle timing based on the number of degrees brought in by the vacuum can. If needed, the vacuum can may be replaced with one that is adjustable, or a sleeve installed to limit its movement. Something in the 10* range should be about right.

Currently I think Steve is on the right track but we may need more initial advance and have to limit the vacuum advance. Aside from that I find his results very encouraging.

JB

Jim:

With wonky tach it was hard to know when timing was all in when the crew was setting it initially.

It is NOT a long curve-- I think it was likely all in between 2400 and 2800. Perhaps 3000, but I did NOT have to rev it much to set the WOT point...

Yes, Steve's news IS very encouraging, if only just for getting out on the road. We have all winter to get the timing right.

IF YOU can come up with another distributor, we can probably curve it for how we'll want (manifold).


Personally, I still think we should figure out why it doesn't idle with 15.... must be that cam. :-/

M

I am probably conservative on the timing, but the car does run well. No ping(i think) and idles fine below 1000.
I have not tried wide open yet as I am not comfortable with this much power. I have no place to really try to hold it open and see what happens.
Once Jim gets the car he or you or whoever can play with the timing all they want.
I just wanted it to run well and not get hurt by too much timing.
I am not sure with the engine noise and my bad hearing that I could detect ping anyway.

steve

Steve:

You made two posts re: timing. One said ported, other manifold.

WITH the manifold being pulled, where is the idle timing? (I thought I saw 24 degrees?).

If that's the case, pinging is NOT the issue-- the timing will be retarded for WOT.

At the moment, if we aren't dynoing it, no worries. But we certainly won't get all it has missing a good 10 degrees of timing! :-)


Remains to be seen in driving conditions. LIkely we're surviving because of the partial throttle/vac cruising. (Which is around 44 it sounds like.)

M

I used to have a 400 Pontiac(67 Firebird) used manifold vacuum stock. 12 initial,34 total. I think the vacuum can only pulled 8". So at idle it would read 20" with hose hooked up. Maybe you need a late 60's Pontiac vacuum can. I also used lighter springs to have all the timing in at 2500 rpm. Better gas back then though. Still had to use Premium because of 10 3/4" to 1 compression

Max, could you have your friend check on the commercial insurance? I guess we'll probably need to get that if we hope to get the car away fro Steve.

JB

Jim, if you or someone can email me the LLC or other incorporation info I'll check with my carrier, I remember asking about it a year or two ago and they indicated they do write policies for LLC's & non-profits. I have ANPAC/Chrome. They're not as well known as Hagerty or Grundy but they are one of the bigger ones and when I researched, they had the least restrictions of the agreed value collector policies.

Latest is: The car now sits down on the drivers side by 1 inch. Just noticed it today. It wasn't that way before.
Any ideas?

Steve

Rob, the formal name of the non-profit is:
British American Deviant Automotive Sports-car Society, N LLC
The new registration paperwork should be back this week sometime, is there something else you need?

Steve, I really don't know what to make of that. Have you been eating more than usual? I suppose the first thing would be to check tire pressures and then to keep an eye on it the next few times you drive it. Could be nothing more than those plastic bushings in the rear suspension sticking. If the problem persists we may have to go back to the timkens and needle bearings. That would be a hassle and cost us a few hundred dollars to fix so I'd rather avoid it if we can, so the car probably needs to be driven more to loosen them up.

JB

Hey Steve, another thought occurred to me. You can adjust that out without too much trouble with the coil overs, so that seems like the best approach. Possibly the small difference in control arm length is making itself known, or maybe the shocks are adjusted a little different, or maybe the installed length is a little different. Probably a combination. Anyway it's probably not a big deal at all and once we have it riding like we like, then sometime later we can check the corner weights to see how we are really loading the tires.

JB

Don't know if they'll need any other info but can imagine it would have to be insured in the state of the LLC &/or registration. Is that KY for both?

Yes, KY would be correct for any question such as that.

JB

Steve:

Air bag pressure still the same? Any chance of a leak, that side only?

How about, now that it's being driven, the bag has "settled" into the holder and thus is actually fine, but is now trying to cover more distance? (Course, wouldn't the pressure have equalized from side to side and balanced the ride for both?)

How about front shock is blown? Lack of resistance there isn't helping the air bag keep that side up? I'm not sure that would be it (should be independent), but it's just one more thing to check while you're poking around.

Not sure how the rear would play into this, unless similar issue: a coil over wasn't seated properly or something. (You'd think we would have noticed!)

$.02

JIm: I'll make enquiries re: insurance.

M

Jim:

What type of coverage are we looking for? Just the value of the car, or liability with many users, or....?

My friend's wife is doing some checking. Her company is affiliate with Keystone Insurer's Group, which may have offices in your area.

She'll get back to me in a few days, probably. (Her specialty is Life & Health, NOT Property & Casualty, so she'll have to get a coworker to work out a prospectus.)

We'll see what she says.... I told her to assume "all possible" coverage, and then we can just drop options from there....?

Stated value of car is $30k, yes?

M

I'd say that's low Max, but for purposes of insurance coverage we can consider a wide range of options. I'm really only concerned about the liability side of it, but if some fool does wreck it, certainly it'd be nice to be able to repair it, and for those purposes something in that ballpark might be appropriate. We've discussed value before and added up what we've done to build the car, compared it to other high end builds, etc. I'd say it should value at something north of 60K everything considered, but that doesn't mean I think the policy should be that high. OTOH, if we insure it for less than we think it is worth then the policy certainly should contain a clause that allows us to keep the remains in the case of a total.

JB

"If" car has Urethane bushings, per "Energy Suspension, brand", they will need to be lubed. I'm assuming not used in torsion ? As a bushing, urethane is fairly high friction,(needs lube). Good Luck, roverman.

I have a call into ANPAC. Will let you know what the options are there. We'd definitely want "agreed value" vs. "stated value". The former is what you and the insurance company agree the car is worth. In the event of a total loss, that's the amount they pay. Stated value is the amount you say it's worth. In the event of total loss they'll pay up to that amount based on what they determine the value to be at the time of the loss.